TOTW: For Those Who Gave All

For those who gave Ⓐ all

Is there anything you’re willing to die for?

For many, it’s their family & friends, their loved ones.

Few are willing to risk their life to save a stranger.
Like diving into a river to save someone from drowning.

Fewer still would extend such altruism to other species.
Like forest defense, or running into traffic to save an animal.

Others defend forests as a place where they find belonging.
Likewise, some defend land occupations, squats, parks, gardens, homes.

Some even die for resources, objects, ideas, projects, fame, notoriety, or art.
One may not only die in defense of things, one may also die while attacking.

Is the willingness to die for something a make or break for anarchists?

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There are 23 Comments

I'm not a woman
I'm not a man
I am something that you'll never understand

I'll never beat you
I'll never lie
And if you're evil I'll forgive you by and by

You, I would die for you, yeah
Darling if you want me to
You, I would die for you

I'm not your lover
I'm not your friend
I am something that you'll never comprehend

No need to worry
No need to cry
I'm your messiah and you're the reason why

'Cause you, I would die for you, yeah
Darling if you want me to
You, I would die for you

You're just a sinner I am told
Be your fire when you're cold
Make you happy when you're sad
Make you good when you are bad

I'm not a human
I am a dove
I'm your conscious
I am love
All I really need is to know that
You believe

Yeah, I would die for you, yeah
Darling if you want me to
You, I would die for you

Yeah, say one more time

You, I would die for you
Darling if you want me to
You, I would die for you
2 3 4 You

I would die for you
I would die for you
You, I would die for you
You, I would die for you

I would die for myself, if someone was trying to kill me and they were pretty good at it

Alternatively, I could also try to stay alive by pre-emptively returning the favor!

Anyway, dont do martyrdom kids
Not. even. once.

why not? i mean, isn't martyrdom what people do to your memory after you die? in that case, i agree; mourn the dead without idolizing them. but isn't how people choose to live and die up to them and part of the freedom we enshrine as anarchists?

At the risk of being serious, I'd say that people should almost always avoid martyring themselves if they have any choice in the matter

But after someone is killed under certain conditions, it might make perfect sense for the living to weaponize their death, against enemies who clearly deserve whatever they get

",,,under certain conditions,,," is a cop-out, and used by those within binary social relationships to justify THEIR violence against someone who is the Other. This lazy thinking does nothing to solve the dilemma of war. Also, " it might make perfect sense,,"? What does this lazy excuse say about authority having a justified rationale regarding retribution, incarceration and the death penalty?

who's trying to "solve" war? not me. i think hobbes was right about the all against all forever

also, you get a cool chair and a silly hat! if you git gude

Friends of mine have died doing things I'm proud of them for doing. Friends of mine have died doing things I'm mad at them for doing. At the end of the day, people in both categories are dead. I'd rather have them here breathing with me than be proud at their grave.

I would, I suppose, die for my immediate loved ones. My child, my partner, my siblings. But only if there was REALLY no other option and I wouldnt exactly be happy about the whole ordeal.

When it comes to "doing anarchy" I very much prefer how the wild ones do it. Plan shit with the idea of getting away alive in mind and fight like hell to keep those plans. Unless you're winding down your older years anyway (as my friend Willem) I don't see why people hold the idea of a "revolutionary suicide" as an ideal. Even if we "win" (spoken with rolled eyes), it'll be a lonely dance on the ashes of the last bank without my friends dancing with me.

More to the point of Tortugita's life being taken by the state, I'm happy to see fire in response. I don't know if it's fair to characterize that as "giving" one's life so much as the state ripping it away. Their willingness to die for the cause is all well and good, but ultimately irrelevant. the decision was made without their input.

I am willing to risk my current life for the family i would like to have, and so future people may have just as many and hopefully *more* opportunities to live their lives. What we must do is speak freely & forthrightly. Communicate & correspond with those who are willing. Read some Jacque Ellul maybe :s

a willingness to die for a commitment, makes it not flimsy, unwavering

to accept that everything has its own risks deflates this premise. people don’t plan heroic deaths, for the most part. they do things (whether calculated, or impulsively, in line with their beliefs or not) and take their chances

yeah like the hero from the recent Monterey Park shooting. bad luck put him in that situation and he had no choice but to confront it, and he saved everyone in that 2nd ballroom and came out alive. sometimes people don't manage to come out of such situations alive. the whims of fate. either way, people will think of them fondly for trying. if he hadn't confronted the gunman, maybe if he hid he could have survived with shame, or maybe he could have been killed and no one would have thought less of him

I will run unashamedly! The old people doing ballroom dancing are intrinsically old rich capitalists who would run away from a poor homeless person asking for food. Know your creed or get out of here, this is not a liberal site!

I would also, and I'm a heavy weight boxer, why should I use my fists against someone with an automatic, they're cheating, and although my fists are classified as lethal weapons, not from 20 feet away, I run!

this macho framing of "those who gave all" as people who dive in front of bullets. what about all the mothers and grandmothers who lived long lives of cooking, cleaning, wiping asses, and taking care of the sick? the feminization of care work means it's unpaid and undervalued, they aren't held as martyrs in any pantheon. domestic care work is heroic and anarchist and essential, but essential workers get treated like shit.

False.

As proof, I hold the mods that have to tirelessly shovel your shit in the highest esteem. The true martyrs!

Yup, the thing about binary social relationships is that there are 2 opposite opinions. Just say this was the Neo-Nazi white supremacist annual ballroom championships, then the shooter would be the hero for anarchists in this scenario. So in the end there are no real winners, losers, martyrs or cowards, just an endless recurrence of violence between 2 opposing ideologies.
We must go beyond this cyclical ressentiment and find common ground.

On the evening of Dec 19, 2008, an about 15 person protest against a corporate official of HLS lab equipment supplier Invitrogen was ambushed by over 75 cops. They later lied on the stand, falsly accusing us of trying to storm the target's house. Apparently that was the premeditated plan of the target's security-guard husband and the cops, after DC Councilmember Mary Cheh had whined about encountering us in the street the previous week after another nighttime home demo.

I was shooting video, and this sort of evidence had the potential to blow the case the cops planned to make on false premises right out of the water. They gave chase and I refused to stop, going flat-out no-surrender. This was around Military Road in DC late at night, with no cover. A back and forth cars vs bike chase resulted, with cops not allowed to ram me they had to pass, get out, and try to chase on foot. I repeatedly defeated that move but had to U-turn every time. Even after blowing a tire I stayed in it, holding them off. Eventually I decided "enough of this" and decided to get into the woods for cover. I did NOT know this area, and my chosen escape route turned out to be over a 35 foot cliff, rocks at the bottom.

As I slowed to enter what appeared to be the treeline, I was suddenly tackled from behind, leading to a wrestling match on downward sloping wet leaves maybe 5 feet from the brink, at the side where the guardrail did not go. The cop tried to suffocate me with a knee in the back but did not have the strengh to do so. He somehow managed to get the cuffs on without us both sliding over the edge-only to have his superiors look over the edge, realize just how close a call this was, and order me released without charges.

Had that cop and I gone over the edge, wrestling all the way to the bottom, we would both have been killed on hitting the stones 35 feet down. Next would have been News Channel 8 and FOX News descending on Ms Janet Lambert's house, asking about the dead cop and the dead protester(me).
It is quite likely that the ugly TV news reports from that would have forced Invitrogen to dump Huntingdon Life Sciences(HLS), which at that time had no other supplier for lab gear and some chemicals. That in turn would have killed HLS, sparing thousands of animals from being tortured to death in the name of vivisection.

Yes, this would have been worth it.

No not really.
In my baby anarchist era, me and the people I hung out with would sometimes talk approvingly of martyrdom, as part of our general effort to be really extreme, at once high-minded and nihilistic. In hindsight I see our extremism as not just mostly hot air, but expressing the real lack of substance in our painfully politicized lives. I sometimes told people I didn’t expect to live to - well, quite a bit younger than I am now. Now if I could say anything to that younger self it would be - live, have a life worth fighting for, don’t justify drifting through these misadventures by the thought of making it right by throwing it all away, a world of possibilities collapsed to an allegedly beautiful gesture.

I think about death and its approaches much more seriously, vividly and frequently now than in my nihilist days, ironically (?). One point that sticks in my head about beginning to turn the corner is reading in an insurrectionist text (armed joy?) the rather famous existentialist point (Camus?) that the possibility of suicide (martyrdom is always in the final analysis suicide) could be taken as a departure point for living to the fullest. I would kind of rather turn the question around, is there an anarchist ethos of life? I think sometimes the kind of anarchism I’m interested in is ultimately all about being “pro-life” in a true sense. I don’t want anyone to die over politics, least of all myself!

*Oh, one thing that happened after this point too, I moved on from a focus on anarchism to learning about many other worldviews. One I’ve spent a lot of time with is Judaism, and it came to mind here, there are a very few things that a person is technically supposed to give up their life for - basically, instead of being forced to commit severe acts of violence, sexual abuse, or blasphemy. In practice, people could atone for such acts occurring under persecution. In general the preservation of life is one of the highest values, for a religion which has hundreds of laws- laws to live by, not to die for.

Different people may have different beliefs about what is worth dying for, but some common examples include protecting one's family and loved ones, defending one's country, and standing up for one's beliefs and values. Ultimately, what is worth dying for is a deeply personal decision that can vary greatly depending on the individual.

Anarchists throughout history have died for a variety of reasons related to their beliefs and actions. Some examples include:

Anarchists in the late 19th and early 20th centuries who were involved in labor struggles and worker's rights movements, and who faced persecution and repression from governments and capitalist employers.

Anarchists who have fought against authoritarian regimes and dictatorships, and have been killed or executed as a result.

Anarchists who have been involved in acts of resistance and rebellion against oppressive systems, and have been killed in the course of those actions.
Anarchists who have been targeted by state security forces and paramilitaries, as well as far-right groups.

Anarchism is a political and social ideology that advocates for the abolition of all forms of hierarchy and the establishment of a society based on voluntary cooperation and mutual aid, so the reasons for dying for those beliefs may vary from person to person.

"Giving it your all" means to put forth your maximum effort, to put all of your energy and attention into something. It means to strive to do your best, to work hard, and to be fully committed to achieving a goal or task. It often implies that you are leaving nothing in reserve, and that you are putting in everything that you have to achieve a desired outcome.

There are many ways that anarchists can give their all in pursuit of their beliefs and goals. Some examples include:

Engaging in grassroots organizing and community-building efforts: Anarchists can work to create and sustain autonomous, self-governing communities and organizations that operate outside of the structures of state and capital.

Educating themselves and others about anarchist theory and history: Anarchists can strive to deepen their understanding of the ideas and principles of anarchism, and share that knowledge with others in order to build a broader base of support for their beliefs.

Participating in direct action and resistance: Anarchists can take part in protests, strikes, and other forms of direct action to disrupt and challenge the status quo and bring attention to issues that they care about.

Building alliances and coalitions: Anarchists can form alliances and coalitions with other groups and individuals who share their values, to increase their collective power and impact.

Creating and supporting alternative institutions: Anarchists can work to create and support alternative institutions such as worker-managed cooperatives, alternative media, and mutual aid networks, that can provide the basis for a new society.

It's important to note that "giving it your all" can mean different things for different people, and the ways for anarchists to give their all may vary depending on their personal circumstances, capacities, and priorities.

Quite possibly, yes. I don't see the point in life without purpose or in constant suffering. In retrospect I wish we had all gone further trying to stop the totalitarian nightmare in the 1990s and 2000s. Now we are in it, it's like a living death and honestly I would have suffered less if I'd died fighting it. The way police operate nowadays is like they're fighting a war, even when the people they're up against are just expressing the wrong opinions or peacefully protesting. People are being traumatised all the time, and dying slowly as a result. And the misery is spreading. If I was in conditions like Alfredo Cospito for example, I hope I would have the courage to hunger strike to death or just kill myself outright. I hope we get a lot more "macho" guerrilla stuff as things keep getting worse, as this might have been what turned the tide in the 1950s-60s. There's no point in the rich countries but there's precedent for autonomous zones in the most marginal parts of the world.

Hmm, I'm more of an ' amor fati ' pragmatic type, you know, no wingeing, this is as good as it's gonna get, make the most of it, use one's imagination to create a level of ambience and humor to rise above the pain, discomfort, anguish and moral indignation ( whatever that is ).
Hunger is cool and I've died a couple of times and been revived, it's not that awesome, don't know why people make such a big thing about martyrdom, I've informally "martyred " myself a few times without even being aware that I was martyring myself, I suppose that's because I'm a selfless generous person not seething in ressentiment.

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