Sept. 12 - Occupy Tactics Debate in NYC - Crimethinc. and Chris Hedges

<table><tr><td>Violence and Legitimacy in the Occupy Movement and Beyond:
A Debate between Chris Hedges and the CrimethInc. Ex-Workers Collective on Tactics & Strategy, Reform & Revolution

Wednesday, September 12, 2012, 7:00 pm
Free admission

Proshansky Auditorium
Lower level, CUNY Graduate Center
365 Fifth Avenue (@ 34th street)
New York City, NY 10016

Not in NYC? A free livestream of the event will be available online. Link TBA.</td><td><img title="I think it is interesting for CT to engage in this debate. I am happy for the A-team to engage publicly on this level but sad that it will be in the impoverished atmosphere of CH's criticism. He is poop, his argument on this topic is sub-poop. Last point... are you really going to argue for diversity of tactics? How 1999 of you." src="http://anarchistnews.org/files/pictures/crimethinc.gif"></td></tr></table>
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Why a debate?
Since Occupy Wall Street took Zuccotti Park in September 2011, there has been a resurgence of social movement activity in the United States. As momentum has increased, age-old questions over tactics, strategy, and goals have returned to the fore.

What is violence? Who gets to define it? Do illegal actions have a place in our movements? This discussion never takes place in a vacuum or on a level playing field; rather, it occurs within the context of a struggle that is already in progress, where every statement has immediate ramifications for the participants. Differing tactical approaches often reflect fundamental differences in strategy and goals.

At the core of these issues is the question:
What are we fighting for and how do we get there?

This moderated debate will feature:

Chris Hedges, Journalist
Chris Hedges is an American journalist, author, and war correspondent, specializing in American and Middle Eastern politics and societies. He will speak to the perspectives behind his controversial article “The Cancer in Occupy” regarding black bloc tactics and anarchist participation in the Occupy movement.

B. Traven, CrimethInc. Ex-Workers Collective
B. Traven will support the case for a diversity of tactics in the Occupy movement and in broader anti-capitalist struggles worldwide, illustrating an anarchist critique of the status quo and a vision of social transformation. CrimethInc. has produced many books and articles, including “The Illegitimacy of Violence, the Violence of Legitimacy,” composed in part as a response to Hedges’ “The Cancer in Occupy.”

Moderated by Sujatha Fernandes, CUNY Graduate Center
Sujatha Fernandes is an Associate Professor of Sociology at Queens College and the Graduate Center, City University of New York. She is the author of several books on urban politics and culture; the latest is “Close to the Edge: In Search of the Global Hip Hop Generation” (Verso). She has written about the Occupy movement and recent global uprisings for The New York Times and The Huffington Post.

Opening remarks by Sarah Leonard, Dissent Magazine
Sarah Leonard is an editor and writer living in Brooklyn, with particular interest in Left politics and the cultural effects of technology. She is an editor of The New Inquiry and N+1, Associate Editor at Dissent magazine, and a co-editor of Occupied!: Scenes from Occupied America.

Download posters and handbills promoting the event:
Poster: Color : B&W
Handbill: Color : B&W

Co-sponsored by: CUNY Graduate Center, CrimethInc. Ex-Workers Collective, Aid & Abet, The Sparrow Project, Occupied Media, The Indypendent, PM Press, Bluestockings Bookstore

For more information:
www.crimethinc.com/occupytactics

Comments

god lol. this would be a celeb death match ep.

open revolt not clandestine debating.

can't stop the debating.

MAKE TOTAL DEBATE

master debater

If anyone was wondering if a Facebook event existed for insightful comments well let me tell you what!

http://www.facebook.com/events/124776737669070/

But were any newspaper writers pulled into the street?

neewwwwwwwwwwwssss papppeeerrrrrrrrrr wrrrittterrrrssss innnn the strrrreeeeeeeeeeeeet!!!!!!!

Facebook anarchists are the worst tendency EVER

Debate debate all you want , this sitting on yo asses and blah blah blah won't do shit for anarchy , just a bunch of talk with big authoritarian words , stagnant fools >

BIG WORDZ OPPRESSES ME

Oh fuck yeah!!! Hedges is about to be so smacked down. Viewing party at my apartment.

mine too! if ever there was a celeb death match to remember, this would be it.

Just 26 days away

Go for the jugular, B

WOOOP WOOP

Going for the jugulur = not arguing for a diversity of tactics, but arguing quite clearly FOR VIOLENCE

remember the suicides, B! remember us!

all the true anarchists are already in prison.

GOING FOR THE JUGGALO = WOOP WOOP!

I hope Mr/s. B. Traven is working up a sweat everyday for the next 23 days in preparation for this debate!! You represent the all of anarchy in your word duel with Chris Hedges!! We love you and don't let us down!!

yeah , don't let us down when you join the enemy in their game , there is a name for you - Hypocrite -
Anarchy will never be with this kind of shit , what will this ever do for any fucking thing except for sidestepping the fucking point , shit with this kind of fight , we will never win ever .

If we can't defend our ideas in public then we never will win either.

Hear hear.

WTF is going on with people who think there's only one battlefield to fight on, and probably aren't even on that one right now.

alienation.

Lmao "represent all of anarchy"

REPRESENT.

NIMBY liberalism is going down

nimble fingers strikes again!

Chris Hedges reminds me of Joe Arpaio in the sense that the more attention you give him the bigger he gets. I hope Hedges gets a nice smack down but I can't help but wonder if it would be better to just ignore him?

You should ignore capitalism. Also, this website. Never come here again.

Nice reasoning skills lol.

is this cnn trying to improve their ratings

Do I really need to sit through a moderated debate (with remarks!) to know that smashie = fine I guess, and Hedges = wrong?

Also this is the same night as the fucking TENEMENT show! Good job clueless dissertators.

TiVo it.

who?

TENEMENT!

i think you know the answer to this: no, you dont, but others might....

How did this debate come to be?

newspaper box in the streets

Mod parent +1, Insightful

Holy shit this is going to be awesome. I hope Hedges cries.

I hope Hedges bleeds.

I hope Hedges dies.

In a bloody fashion.

does that get you moist, you little perv?

riot porn makes me moist

it's spelled maoist

Good point! Fantasies of killing people makes Maoists moist. And "anarchists," too, apparently.

l0l.

Indeed, my joke is funny, but if you're the Hedges troll, you're not welcome to enjoy it. Please go somewhere else. Everyone else, have a blast.

The debate is going to be moderated by someone who wrote a book called “Close to the Edge: In Search of the Global Hip Hop Generation” and writes for the Huffington Post? This should be funny.

As anarchists don't we always disregard moderation and trend towards extremism?

T - Stands for THANKS for reading this comment
H - Stands for HELP because i would appreciate your views
A - Stands for ANYBODY who gives me a view is helping
N - Stands for letting NOTHING stop your dream . i am a 14 yr old singer
K - Stands for KEEPING this comment at the top with your likes hopefully
Y - Stands for YOUTUBE which is the area i need your help
O - Stands for ONLY you can help my dream become a reality
U - Stands for i UNDERSTAND if you don't but it's appreciated

Thus begins the resurgence of absurdity.

The yawning abyss brings for the self aware universe.

F - Stands for a miserable FAILURE, which is you
U - Stands for USING a humorously inept comment bot
C - Stands for CRY moar, cause nobody cares
K - Stands for KID, find a new hobby cause you suck

O - Stands for get OFF this site & don't come back
F - Stands for FUCK you for wasting my life
F - Stands for FORTUNATELY I will never watch your pathetic YT videos

Drink everytime crimethinc backpedals on anarchist principles in order to espouse a rhetoric of how we're all in this together!

Drink every time Hedges opens his mouth, as if to speak, but, instead, a gallon of dicks falls out, to the revelrous applause of the house, which is sure to be packed with leftist blowjobs. How can this possibly end well?

George Carlin on Chris Hedges.

This won't be as great as you expect it to be. The format of the debate has already placed legitimacy in Hedges' perspective before it's even begun. It will be quite civil, like two gentlemen agreeing to disagree. Hedges is not a "comrade" with a different perspective. He is not in our camp at all, so why would you be surprised he has the views he does?

He cannot be debated, only smashed. The entire debate only gives him more legitimacy. His behavior has shown him to be an enemy and he should be treated as such, unless you want Crimethinc. to have a debate with a police chief. Get it?

And of course, it goes without saying that this event, with its journalists and professors in the context of the university, contributes to the recuperation of anarchism, also before the even has even happened. Think about how bad it will be when it successfully happens, without being stopped in some serious non-comical way? With Crimethinc. involved, you can be sure they have a gag up their sleeve, maybe even with Hedges in on the gag, where there will be a fake disruption that in no way stops the event. Somebody, some brave soul, make a real disruption.

We are supposed to be at daggers drawn, with the existent, ITS DEFENDERS, AND ITS FALSE CRITICS. Remember?

Here Here! I think that the problem of Leftist journalism can be solved the way most problems are solved: beat them at their game, then go outside and play in the rain.

The way I see this, it's a flanking maneuver. It's not an attack. The point is to positon ourselves so the liberals have a harder time justifying attacks on us. This is more for permanent fence-sitters than for potential comrades, to disable them: "I dunno, they have some good arguments..."

What counts will happen in the streets, of course. But it will go worse if the ground isn't prepared for it. Hedges isn't the target--you're right, he's equivalent to the police, with whom there is no debate. The target is the narrative justifying repression, in a grey zone (post-Occupy whatever) where it might be vulnerable.

I agree with your sentiment, but i think you re (falsely, at least specifically in this case) assuming that crimethinc is debating hedges in order to change his mind, or win some kind of political constituency. Neither of those would seem to be the case, but rather utterly humiliate him on what is really his own turf. Im not convinced that this automatically gives hedges "more legitimacy."

And of course hedges is an enemy, and needs to be smashed. But we anarchists, including those of us most disinclined to ever approach the media or university halls as a realm of struggle, still believe in countering information and ideas with other ideas....We still respond to press and media slandering with our own counter propaganda, just usually on an irrelevant and ineffectual scale. Personally, i could see this event being a big waste of time, or even worse, to your point, but i can ALSO see how it would basically serve as one more piece of counter-info and propaganda, particularly the livestream aspect - i live in a small southern town where these debates are unfortunately omnipresent, and fully intend to set up a viewing party of this (drinking game, perhaps?). (On the note of counter-info, I might even put out there a quote, by the same author you quoted, who wrote, "Revolt needs everything: papers and books, arms and explosives, reflection and swearing, poison, daggers and arson. The only interesting question is how to combine them.)

Ultimately, which way it goes is dependent, i think, on two things: one, how B Traven chooses to engage, both with "our" politics towards violence and the State as well as with Hedges himself. If the first is done poorly, then we ll have one more fuzzy "anarchists are just the malcolm to your MLK, you need us", diversity of tactics style characterization of anarchists, the ultimate "radical liberals." Or if it becomes a "gentlemen agreeing to disagree" moment, then i agree with you, this too would make it a waste of time or worse. But i think its possible that the engagement could avoid these pitfalls. Our enemies are not always rhetorically invincible, and we are not always incoherent babbling morons.

The second thing it depends on, i think, is how the rest of us, specifically folks in nyc, engage. The best way to make something not suck, i say, is to have your own plans, rather than hope "our" man says what we want. A sharp imagination could come up with a hundred ways to expose the entire Hedges/university/CUNY/NY Times journalist apparatus for what it is. I say fucking go for it, and i bet b traven would agree. Nothing would make me happier if this event never even happened, cus hedges woke up in a desert somewhere naked covered in fire ants or something.

So all that being said, i think its a little hasty to immediately write this off. It could be terrible, it could be quite unique. Who knows, but ill certainly be drinking a shot everytime hedges says peaceful and every time b says "diversity of tactics." I may be fucking wasted...

(PS...i get the sneaking feeling we ve met? we really must stop finding each other on the web, its tacky.)

What small southern town? I live in Knoxville and the only debates here are reformisst and lifestyle shit. Which is important, but it never goes much more beyond that.

so small its not on a map!

Chris Hedges compared "us," to a cancer, you have to deligitimize him.

fire ants are too good chris hedges
i cant wait until we are in charge and get the guillotine dusted off

Executing people for expressing dissenting viewpoints? Seriously? LOL... You sir/maam, are not an anarchist.

Good drinking game: watch David Graeber give a lecture and take a drink every time he doesn't.

I HOPE THE SERIOUS NON-HUMOROUS INTERRUPTION IS CHRIS HEDGES DROPPING DEAD LIVE ON THE INTERNET

wishing people who have different opinions than you death really attracts people i know who arent anarchists to the anarchy scene. because it sounds very reasonable, not to mention it is a very good use of our death wishing energy.

I agree. I mean, I think that as anarchists our primary goal is to gain more followers so that we can build a movement!

I'm assuming by the use of the word followers, that this was meant as sarcasm. But, as anarchists, our goal is to smash the state, which obviously is going to take more anarchists than currently exist. Accomplices would have been a better word.

Yeah, exactly. I dunno what people are thinking who are against discussion, outreach, connecting with others, etc. Those are (among) the ways we get in position so when we hit we can hit harder.

Another counterpoint to this perspective, i think we all know why this debate is a little different than crimethinc publicly debating "a police chief" like this commenter suggests - Hedges is a talking head, his job is to onfluence and manipulate opinion in a direction and that mediates uncontrollable elements and isolates us from those that might join in if conditions and emotions ran right.

But that being said, ill take the bait anyway, and point out that i know of at least two different contexts, once in the NW struggles against police, and once after a building eviction in chapel hill, where making an ass of the police chief(s) and public officials in a public setting served to delegitimize their narrative and actually gave some serious courage to a lot of people who were sort of "on the fence" - anti cop but not quite sure....

Obviously, neither of these things happened in a vaccuum - both involved marches, mass illegal actions, and the NW struggle of course many many more inspiring things, all of which were more important than humiliating public officials. BUt that doesnt mean those public interventions werent worthwhile (and they hardly cost much if done right...)

I guess what im saying is, if its done intelligently and avoids some of the pitfalls others have mentioned (the gentlemanly debate aesthetic, for example) i'm not really sure what the problem is. We're opposed to making demands and negotiating with the state and its officials, not to humiliating them publicly before and after we do even worse.

Hopefully some nihilists will show up before hand and throw C.H. in a trunk of a car after pistol whipping him, and take him away. XD

Well, y'all (hypothetical nihilists in the void of the internet) know where he's gonna be on September 12th, now.

What is nihilist?

Nihilists are people who wear dark, weird-looking clothing, speak with a stereotyped German accent and have pet ferrets.

WE CARE OF NUUUUFINGGGG

What is?
What is the new?
What is the new?
What is the new nihilism?

still genius.

Yeah--now THAT'S my idea of a good debate!

Right? I mean this is really just a way to lure him in, right . . . . ?

If you look at the politics of everyone else except for Crimethinc, not to mention the location of the event, you will see the "luring in" will be done from the other side.

Well, this event was organized by anarchists.

A diverse group of anarchists. People who have been doing this work for multiple decades. By people who have spent time in prison for it. By people who believe in promoting critical thought.

Some of them work at universities. Some of them edit magazines. Some of them haven't had a job since the 90's. You can "look at our politics" by making judgements on associations that you don't fully understand. But you are wrong.

There's no luring being done here. It's a bunch of people getting together to have a conversation and a dialog. We hope it to impactful and constructive.

Join us if you'd like. If you are not into it, do your own thing. That's it.

i think this commenter is probably referring to people like the new york times contributor and the professor type, rather than the @s who are actually promoting this behind the scenes.

This shit better be on YouTube do I can watch it when I'm not working.
--a wage slave

Who cares?

I DO I DO
And I mostly don't care about dandy shit like academia or ideas or words.
What I'm trying to say is that this event has some mad cross-over appeal. NIMBY liberals, dandy intellectuals, and totally hetero macho men of action like myself will all be tuning in to the livestream for our own reasons.

anarchists need daytime television.

don't commit heinous violence against the spectacle! become the spectacle you want to see in the world.

CRIPPLE FIGHT!

Way to be ableist

Way to try to put more cops in people's heads. Piss off, you wanky fop.

fuckin lol

All you've got to know is that Hedges is a moralist. Just point out that Gandhi and MLK were assassinated and then everything they worked for burned to the ground. Maybe also mention that we're not allies since we're not actually working toward the same goals (liberal social democracy vs anarchy), and that the Occupy camps operated on Anarchist principles (consensus, gift economics, etc) so it's pretty clear which one people prefer.

Also, property damage isn't violence because it doesn't hurt people or anything else capable of feeling pain or fear, BUT pacifists believe that whether or not something is violence depends on the emotional state of the ACTOR, not the target! In their minds, if a person breaks a window calmly, it's NOT violence; if they do the same thing out of anger, it IS violence. I'm just telling you what they seriously believe!

People like Hedges are moralists, first and foremost. They don't give a fuck about reality because all they care about is whether or not they get to go to Heaven. Never mind that Jesus whupped the shit out of the moneychangers. They don't like to talk about that- and therefore you should!

If you want to beat them, you have to get inside their head! I've been there, man. I seen things. I got the intel and hauled ass. Jimmy... Jimmy didn't make it. Don't let his sacrifice be in vain.

Don't forget to point out certain critiques like...Chris Hedges you look like the Lebowski, Chris Hedges you're an opportunistic disingenuous blow hard with a subpar intellect, Chris Hedges you write horribly cliched underwritten crap, Chris Hedges the Occupy movement effectively ended after you threw a temper tantrum on paper and called it journalism. Chris Hedges you use the same language as Hitler to describe political radicals,

Time to rip Hedges a new asshole.

wait a minute, i thought the "occupy" wave was ultimately pretty bad and it was cool we were willing to become a cancer on it, even if some of "us" also started it. how are we gonna argue against a guy who's just playing his position and calling it like he saw it?

Occupy is the cancer of black bloc!

OMG is Occupy even a thing any more?

First, methinks crimethinc are whores for money and attention. Take that or leave it.

Second, Hedges doesn't comprehend that the US is fundamentally
1) violent and 2) racist.

These are the essential ingredients in the American DNA.
(See William S. Burroughs, 'A Thanksgiving Prayer')

Fine if the East Germans refused to fire on their brothers and sisters. Methinks mostly because the bros and sis's were WHITE like the shooters.
America has no such homogeneity. So many folks look so different from each other that it is easy as baseball and apple pie to get some dumb rednecks with guns, pepper spray and lethal tasers to dehumanize and Haji-fy their fellow countrymen, the better to torture them and/or blow their brains across the American sidewalk.

America is so effing violent that murdering little kids in theaters or slaughtering turban wearing non-muslims, or even shooting elected congresswomen in the head are the FIRST targets of these universally white psychopaths. If such are the first targets, then how do you think Johnny Law will feel about tan people, mix-race people or paleo-hippies with dirty jeans?

Hedges was not here in the US during the 1990s. He tells of punching black rapists in the face, but says nothing of fighting against police brutality or any of the other social forces that manufacture rapists.

Death of the Liberal Class was obviously Hedges' psychologically projected autobiography.

Have a good day.

"First, methinks crimethinc are whores for money and attention. Take that or leave it."

Wait, compared to who? Sure, their whole project is to direct attention to anarchist stuff, but... money? Last I heard they were still sending out free primers to anyone who asked for one. Like, *in the mail.* Those people aren't making money. This event is free. You're a pisspoor excuse for a troll on a site where trolling has become an art form.

"First, methinks crimethinc are whores for money and attention. Take that or leave it."

Make sure to take your ridiculous lifestyle politics and Aus Rotten butt flap over to anarcho punk.net tnx.

>First, methinks crimethinc are whores for money and attention. Take that or leave it.

I'm gonna jump on the "you're an idiot" train here, but hey, you should talk to a venture capitalist about the profit margins of producing and distributing anarchist propaganda for barely above the cost of printing and shipping (along with a significant amount of completely free material) while paying for website hosting.

Damn the man, that first sentence was supposed to be indicated as a quote. Oh well, you know what I fuckin' mean.

"First, methinks crimethinc are whores for money and attention. Take that or leave it."

Wait, have we been had? Successful troll is successful!

http://www.democracynow.org/2012/5/1/no_work_no_shopping_occupy_everywhere

hedges tries to hang with activists in a democracy now! debate, ends up getting told and looking like the tool he is-

CrimethInc is awesome, but their downfall is that they are a little too diplomatic. I mean, I get it, they got real big real quick (and if it weren't for them and a few other tendencies, anarchism may have been ignored), and they got called everything under the sun, for every reason under the sun. So they tried to be more diplomatic, cause, well, they DO wanna change things, but sometimes, when we do this, people just step all over us.
I got nothing but love for CrimethInc, just hope they really throw a good punch. Fredy Perlman style. (doesn't have to be any name calling, the punch is in the blistering critique that leaves the target, as well as the audience questioning everything)

Question everything, even the NDAA?

Black bloc doesn't equal anarchism.

Hedges (clearly a hater of the black bloc) doesn't a equal defender of the police state. He certainly isn't comparable to a Police Chief, as has been claimed by people who only see black or white.

Or didn't you know about his lawsuit against Obama's NDAA? Certainly hasn't been reported on this alleged news site.

If that lawsuit fails, this is what will result, translated from the British to the American scene:

http://libcom.org/news/uk-anti-terrorist-police-detain-anarchist-federat...

And all you macho, poorly informed, testosterone inflamed assholes will be among the very first to be rounded up, and NO ONE except the proud defenders of a tactic -- remember that the Bloc is only a tactic not a group or a strategy? -- will be left to stand up for you. That means NO ONE.

You're a dummy.

Enjoy your indefinite detention at a military prison!

I'm gonna have to agree with the guy above you, dummy.

We're NO. ONE! We're NO. ONE!

Feels good to be on top :)

Lol. Oh, Chris Hedges, we had you so wrong. Let us get down on our black padded knees to thank you for defending us from indefinite detention under the NDAA. Too bad they've got a million other trumped up ways to repress people. When are you launching your lawsuit against Grand Juries? But at least it won't be the military imprisoning us, it will be our local police instead, a huge improvement I'm sure you'll agree. I just hope other anarchists see the error of their ways before they all get rounded up. Comrades, the only thing standing between us and the gulags is Chris Hedges!

^ Textbook example of an argument from bad faith. ^

Text book by the government , fuck , shit , hell , wake the fuck up people , talking about shit , will not do shit >

A good example of the linguistic skills of the average anarchist.

this fucking moron insults those who present cogent critiques of his position, then acts all self-righteous and intellectual when people insult him back. Ooooooh, I hate him.

Hatred is probably one of the only emotions you are capable of. Ooooooooh.

i no u r but wut am i

Yeah, we should respect the part of the movement that wants the other part behind bars.
SOLIDARITY!

I am the author of the "Black Bloc doesn't equal anarchism" comment.

if you can read, read this:

http://anarchistnews.org/content/anarchists-detained-counter-terrorist-p...

That's what the NDAA is in England. If it comes here -- over the lawsuit filed by Chris Hedges, Noam Chomsky, Daniel Elsberg and others with a lot more balls than you'll ever have -- you so-called anarchists (as well as a lot of other people) are fucked.

So get over your childish attachment to a *tactic* (the Black Bloc) and try try try to see the larger picture.

That's probably asking waaaaaay too much of testosterone addled armchair anarchists who wouldn't fucking dare to take on the NDAA and probably don't even know what the fuck it is. . . .

See ya, wouldn't wanna be ya!

IGTT an A for effort.

Chris Hedges, Noam Chomsky, Daniel Elsberg: fuck them, fuck you.

This new A-fed troll sucks.

Tell Chris Hedges that blackblock is a tactic..

Go right ahead. I've got better things to do than yell at some journalist.

Wouldn't dare to take on the NDAA? More like I don't have the money to get a lawyer to do it. If you think the NDAA is the beginning of anarchists in the US getting detained and harassed then you really haven't been paying attention. Of course, it's easy to take shots at who you think people are on the internet, but you make yourself look stupid when you do that. The courts won't protect us when they stat rounding people up. Ask the japanese-americans who were sent to internment camps during WW2 how much a court decision helped them.

Really, arguing in the comments section of @news is just dumb and I'm dumb for even bothering.

Yet another ignoramus! This thread is just chocked full of them. You don't need "money to get a lawyer" to sue someone. You could easily represent yourself *pro se* or you could get a like-minded attorney (they are several very well known examples) who would be glad to do it *pro bono.* But don't let these little facts get in the way of your self-righteous arrogant testosterone addled bellowing, OK?

WTF? "self-righteous arrogant testosterone addled bellowing"

Yeah, you keep up the good fight there mister aggressive.

How does bringing a case against the government take "balls" again? What's so brave about it?

Uh, try reading something other than the backs of cereal boxes and you *might* just find out. I know that prove difficult, but at least give it a try, huh?

"I know that prove difficult, but at least give it a try, huh?"

Yes indeed, "that prove difficult."

If you're going to insult someone's reading skills it would behoove you to use correct grammar.

Aaaaaaand I'm done with the troll now.

Yes, a single spelling mistake can derail an entire argument *if that argument is offered in bad faith.*

New commenter now. You're a fool. Everyone here loathes you. Please don't think you're impressing anyone. For goodness sake, stop already.

Whhhoooops! I mean the troll is loathsome, not you, unfortunate troll-fighter.

Everyone here hates me? How would you know that? Do you speak for everyone?

Yes.

Yes, a single spelling mistake can derail an entire argument if you answer that argument with *a pseudo-argument that is offered in bad faith.*

So, would you care to answer the question? What exactly takes "balls" about going to court? It's pretty much a bunch of lawyers doing stuff and if I had pursued the case then I'd have to show up occasionally, maybe just a couple times. I mean, oooooh, sitting in court, that's suppose to be scary? I don't get it.

Read a little G. Agamben - "State of Exception" ... they don't need a law to do that, never have needed it.

But yes, we should use Chris Hedges to slow up the system with lawsuits and shit ... maybe even let him keep writing his reform-liberal drivel, but not for a moment cease attacking him when he attacks us. Unless he changes his position on anarchists, I wouldn't mind if he got a spike through the skull.

Another ignoramus. One that refers to "G. Agamben," no less! "They didn't need a law to do that" -- and yet both England and America passed such laws. If reading "G. Agamben" has made you so smart, perhaps you might explain why "they" passed laws that "they" have "never" needed? Go ahead, we're waiting.

To normalize and fully legitimize a prior existing practice. Have I been imagining the constant streams of arrests and detainings that have been taking place over the years?

And here we have a graduate student: "To normalize and fully legitimize a prior existing practice." That might work on your professors or on the undergraduate students whose papers you grade, but it won't work outside the Ivory Tower.

Wait, am I an arrogant testosterone filled armchair anarchist or a grad student? I'm so confused!

Likely both. I really don't care either way. You're satisfied with yelling insults at a journalist? No one is stopping you.

Who the hell is yelling insults at a journalist. Hedges isn't a journalist and I'm not yelling insults.

says the person who starts many of their posts by calling whoever they're responding to an ignoramus

I guess it is important to yell insults at anarchists.

Really, we all got trolled hella hard.

To the tune of the Dead Kennedys song:

"KILL KILL KILL KILL KILL THE TROLL" etc.

Too funny for words! Here's your hero, writing a letter to the President, whose authority he obviously recognizes (otherwise he'd never have written such a letter in the first place)
http://www.thatsjustnotright.com/forum/index.php?/topic/33590-jello-biaf...

Making a joke about a song does not make Jello anyone's hero. Try harder with your trolling.

You make jokes about killing people? *You* are the troll -- without even trying, I should add.

Actually, no, I didn't make any jokes about killing people. That was someone else. I just pointed out that making a parody of a song doesn't mean you idolize the original singer.

Making a "parody" of a song that was *already* a parody makes *you* the ultimate parody.

I didn't make a parody of anything. I pointed out that someone, perhaps you, we incorrect in thinking that making a parody of a song meant that you idolized the original singer. Basic stuff really.

You clearly don't know what the word "parody" means. If you *weren't* being parodic or sarcastic in your quotation of a song about *killing people,* then you were simply stating in a straight forward way that I (the "troll") should be killed. Which makes you no better than any other homicidal maniac.

You misunderstand, that wasn't me with the comment about trolls based on Jello's song, I made the comment about how that comment didn't mean anyone thought Jello was a hero. I said nothing about killing troll, sarcastically, as a parody, or otherwise.

The case of Jello is very significant. He started out as an "anarchist." Or at least he managed to convince all the little boys and girls that he was an "anarchist," so they put the "DK" logo on patches and glued those patches to their clothes. They got "DK" tattoos. So radical! But then Jello showed his true colors when he ran for mayor (this was long before he wrote his pathetically earnest open letter to Obama, thereby recognizing the President's authority over him). But no one bothered to tell all those follow-the-leader "punk rock" boys and girls that *they'd been had* and made to look like utter fools. Now its 30 years later, and another generation has been raised to quote DK's lyrics when pushed ("Kill the troll" in this instance). But unlike the children of the 1980s, who at least had some excuse for their naivete, the children of the 2010s should know better. But they don't.

Oh God, I know far more about Jello than I'd like to already. There was also the whole running for president thing. There's plenty of music I like that's made by people who turned out to be idiots or assholes, or just fake. I don't need to love them to like some of their music.

Missing my point. To anyone one with a brain, Jello and the DKs didn't "turn out" to be a hoax. They were an obvious hoax from the very beginning. And the person who chanted "Kill the Troll" wasn't saying he genuinely "liked" the DK's music. He was attempting to be "funny." And failed.

And I thought I didn't like Jello.

You dislike him so much that you can't even be bothered to be amused by a "parody".

jesus entering from the rear

I read these comments in this guy's voice.
http://youtu.be/b-ibcEJj_KI?t=37s

It isn't as if he's really doing anything. It's a lawsuit which means it's run by lawyers. He probably had to spend a tiny amount of time "bravely" saying that the law scared him. I don't think it's a bad thing that it's being challenged given that he wouldn't be putting his resources to better use otherwise, but yeah, the state doesn't need laws to detain anarchists.

The troll is dragging you into a new position ("we don't need to fight the NDAA") when all that needs saying is "Hedges set the stage for a crackdown on anarchists, which is equivalent to what this new law will do."

If Hedges is "part of the solution" in opposing the NDAA, he wants it to be a solution that ALSO hangs anarchists out to dry--i.e., a liberal solution to the contradictions of capital/hierarchy, NOT a liberating one.

I don't think fighting the NDAA is a good use of our resources by any stretch of the imagination.

"If Hedges is "part of the solution" in opposing the NDAA, he wants it to be a solution that ALSO hangs anarchists out to dry--i.e., a liberal solution to the contradictions of capital/hierarchy, NOT a liberating one."

Indeed. My personal experience with Hedges really confirms that he is not a part of any solution. Stopping the NDAA isn't a solution, it's a tactic that makes us marginally safer. But given that the police and feds arrests anarchists on a regular basis anyway it seems like using resources to fight it is a waste. I definitely see what your saying though.

"I don't think fighting the NDAA is a good use of our resources by any stretch of the imagination." Of course you don't! You're an "anarchist," which means you've purified your ideology to the point that all you can think to do, when it comes time to do something, is smash a few windows during a "protest."

Insults, cool, I can do insults too. You obviously don't address any of the point in these posts because your a stupid poopy head "liberal."

Ha! Take that!

P.S. You also make assumptions about people on the internet pthththththt!

The only "point" in these posts is that "anarchists" are upset because some journalist said something they don't like about their brand of ideology. You're satisfied with yelling at Hedges? Go yell at him, then.

No, he didn't say anything about my ideology. And I could care less about what he says about an ideology, what I do care about is what he says about people.

Cool ideology, bro.

The coolest.

And that's what anarchism is all about! Being the coolest kid on your block / in your classroom.

Ya got me. I've just been doing this for years to be cool. I've obviously failed miserably. I'm thinking that Maoism is going to be the next big thing. I could join Avakian's little cult. Ooh, maybe the Sparticists, they do have the coolest name.

You're obviously being sarcastic, but too many "anarchists" are indeed just "doing this" to be "cool." Or to better market themselves as graduate students or assistant professors who stand out from all the rest. You can count on them to become obedient little sheeple as soon as their testosterone output has leveled off. Stick around long enough and you'll see for yourself.

I'm pretty well aware of that. I'm one of those rarest of specimens the older anarchist. I have been around for quite a while

You're fucking garbage. People have refuted your points thoroughly enough. If you're still here commenting in a steady stream, it's because you have problems at home or you're being paid to. Please fuck off.

Nobody has refuted anything I've said. But my points about "anarchists" have been abundantly confirmed by the manner in which way my points have *not been refuted." It is really quite pathetic that hatred, temper tantrums (against me, against Hedges, against your Mommy and Daddy) and impotence rage are the only emotions you are capable of.

Yeah, temper tantrums, like where you're constantly shouting about how stupid all of the "anarchists" are. I'd go find a mirror if I were you and quit trying to tell us Hedges is all super great and our friend.

Another argument in bad faith: no one but *you* have said Hedges "is all super great and our friend." What is it with you "anarchists" and bad faith? Are you so intellectually impoverished that you can't argue any other way?

yawn....stupid Hedges troll is so boring..............ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

My testosterone is overflowing. All this sexy talk about hedges and ignoramuses is getting my ivory tower all stiff! You are such a dirty little lover of hedges.he's like your father.you want daddy to approve of your defending his big liberal log. You want him to see what a big boy you are. Come here to daddy hedges, and sit on my lap So i can give you a nice big black bloc to bounce on. I love your naughty defense of big daddy hedges. You sound so scholastic and journalistic , it gets me soooo horny for you. That's right buddy, you've got me all hot and bothered with all your nasty trolling. I'd like to think you were a cop, but that would just make my fantasy go over the top, you sexy stooge for hedges.
Xoxo,
Queer as fuck for hedge lovers

PS-go fuck yourself, and post it on YouTube

Argument in bad faith blah blah blah. Did you just get out of an entry level rhetoric class? Taught by Chris Hedges? That's the only way any of this conversation makes any sense.

"It's a lawsuit which means it's run by lawyers." Obvious tautology is obvious.

The NDAA has existed forever, but with a different or no name, we're all used to it, we all know about it, it didnt start with some new bill. sorry you just woke up to the world but we didnt. we are already fucked, dont you see? yeah, now some armchair people might go to jail, but many of us have already been there, several times, or detained at airports, blah blah blah. and also, it doesnt take any "balls" to FILE A FUCKING LAWSUIT. thats what you call courage?

We have always been at war with Eurasia.

Looks like Chris Hedges will take the title for the most notoriety on 2012, and he'll jump on the bandwagon and further promote his own brand of anarchism, and pull off a few lucrative deals with publishers. For ye know not what ye hath done. Damn!!

what is all this crap. i hope these spambots are getting paid.

Chris Hedges *The russian revolution was nonviolent, during the bread riots, the Cossacks were sent to quell the unrest and instead, they joined the rioters.*

Anyone ...? Contradiction within a single sentence? ... ANYONE?

It's the quantum theory of riots. Individual actors, such as "THE BLACK BLOC ANARCHISTS" can be violent without the riot itself being violent.

What the fuck happened in this comment section.

well lets see, it originally started out like normal, but then some person who I'm going to call Hedges Troll made a post about how we should stop condemning Hedges and actually support him, because he is involved with a lawsuit against the NDAA and then informed us that we were misinformed morons who were filled with testosterone. People then posted replies that disagreed with Hedges troll's post and some of those replies ridiculed their post (for obvious reasons). Hedges troll then angrily responded to all of those posts with posts tabout how anarchists are morons that are unable to read anything more complicated than the back of cereal boxes and that we only can express the emotion hate. Then Hedges Troll tried to show how infinitely smarter and generally vastly superior to anarchists with irrelevant nitpicking of things that were ultimately not very important to the point that many people were making (like the difference between legislative and judicial change) and also babbling about how everyone who is responding to their posts is making an argument from 'bad faith' (obviously they were using this as a way to try to show how intelligent they are by showing that they know the name of a logical fallacy). Also a few times they claimed that they are not arguing for or supporting reformist measures, but it was obvious by the first post they made and became even more clear in others that they do support that and because we don't support those measures and because in general we don't conform to what society expects us to do we are stupid. So after awhile they seemingly went away, that basically sums it up.

I don't know, but for some fucking reason I read every fucking comment....I feel so ashamed.

But now I need to comment on this litany of shit all so to feel as if there was a purpose. A purpose for reading the mad grade school ramblings of a petty soul sucking troll. Who by the way I would be willing to bet 2 to 1 is hedges himself (probably checking out the competition). Just judging by his "testosterone" this and his "adolescent" that and of course the intellectually void yet tryingly repetitive references to hedges being a "brave journalist", when in reality he's nothing more than some privileged over acknowledged op-ed contributor/blogger and a sup-bar hack at that.

I don't know, I kind don't think it was Hedges, but I think its some smug liberal who is a disciple of Hedges.

Actually if I were gonna guess, I would say it was an "anti-authoritarian" super-troll who imagines himself as better than anyone who self-identifies with one political label or another, because he's "pragmatic" and "logical" and "doesn't conform to ideology" and "uses quotes around various words to emphasize his condescending implications".

nah I'm pretty sure he's in love with Hedges analysis.

ya ya ya das stimmt! except for "super-troll" this "analysis" is the right one:

Actually if I were gonna guess, I would say it was an "anti-authoritarian" super-troll who imagines himself as better than anyone who self-identifies with one political label or another, because he's "pragmatic" and "logical" and "doesn't conform to ideology" and "uses quotes around various words to emphasize his condescending implications".

ONLY YOU DON'T WIN ANYTHING FOR BEING RIGHT.

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