Debate Surrounding Bay Area Anarchist Bookfair's Location Misses The Nuance of the Porn Debate, Real Issues With the Armory

Over the course of this week, the internet has been set ablaze by an argument about the 2013 Bay Area Bookfair's choice of the SF Armory as this year's venue. The conversation was initially sparked by a number of feminists including PM Press author Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz. The debate between anti-porn feminists like Dunbar-Ortiz and those who could be described as having a vaguely third-wave feminist positions about the Armory, the Bookfair, and Kink.com, rather than helping address substantial concerns about the Armory as a venue, has instead only flattened the nuanced conversation about the porn industry and helped obfuscate the Armory and Kink.com's role in creating unfair labor practices for porn workers and in furthering the gentrification of the Mission District.

While certainly allegations of BDSM being "torture porn" are self-evidently ridiculous, its defenders have also at times fallen back on a boring, uncritical rehashing of liberal third-wave politics that ignore the structural constraints of gender and the economy. Anti-porn advocates have a point when they question the role of consent and the sex industry as a particularly gendered sector of the economy that many women and gender-variant people have turned to in times of desperation. In my experiences as a sex worker, I hate working. To talk about this work as 'consensual sex' is a bit sickening when I think of fucking nasty old men that I'd never ever have sex with outside of the conditions of desperately needing money to survive. It's difficult to see consent when Capital's gun is at the back of my head. Of course this is obviously not a reason to condemn my life choices or act like I need saving, but neither do I appreciate being painted as an aspiring entrepreneur or a 'bright young woman saving money for college' to prove my worth as a human being. As anarchists we should be able to put forth an analysis of the sex industry without relying on liberal arguments about being free actors on the market. Nor do we need to rely on the idea that only sex workers could understand the sex industry [I understand that diamond mining is bad work no matter how many posi, entrepreneurial diamond miners I meet...] The reality is that we are all forced to make less-than-consensual decisions about how we will survive under capitalism. There is a gun to the back of the head of a woman who is working as a server in the restaurant you frequent, of the woman cleaning your 'feminist' friend's apartment, of the gender-variant person who can't make money because of their gender presentation.

The economy is indeed structured in a gendered way that makes the sex industry a lucrative way of making money for women, gender-variant people, and gay men, and the spectacular images of pornography that have been created by the exploitation of many of these people do constrain our desires and construction of "what real [gay, BDSM, TS, etc.] sex is.'" The pornography industry lays bare the recuperation of sexual revolution: liberation means you can have the digitized image of whatever you like. Sexual culture has been confined to the endless circulation of images on the internet that confines our possibilities. To endlessly talk about being a feminist "who likes porn" does not actually address the real ways in which structurally our desires are truly mutilated by an industry that has appropriated them and made them a sellable image for profit.

The most unfortunate part of this argument is the anarchists that have chosen to defend not only BDSM and pornography, but also Kink.com and the Armory, speaking of the "good consent procedures" in place for its actors and it being a good place for "young women to make money." For anyone who has followed Kink for more than the last week, this apologism for a company that has been complicit it in the redevelopment of the Mission District and unfair labor practices against its organizing workers is embarrassing and neglects the very real issues that are at stake in having the Anarchist Bookfair at the Armory. I wonder how many workerists would be up-in-arms about the mistreatment of workers at a venue that weren't webcam sex workers. I wonder how many anarchists talking about loving Kink know about how they want to tear down the food pantry next door. If we insist on entering this conversation, let's acknowledge that there is more than one issue at stake, and that creating strawmen back and forth does no benefit our position. Let's actually stake out an anarchist position in this mess: that we are against the gender violence (of sex work and all work), against the economy that sells our desires and the companies that profit, against the bosses at Kink.com that profit from our sexualities that might have once been subversive, against the redevelopment of our neighborhoods by 'kinky' tech yuppie assholes, against PM Press for making the bookfair into a book-selling marketplace for them rather than a place we might actually forge new connections.

Fuck the Armory and Kink.com, fuck PM Press, fuck Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz and Rebecca Solnit, fuck the second-wave and the third-wave, and most of all, fuck work.

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Comments

One of the potentials of the thread on the book fair's page is that the moralizing 2nd-wavers are, in a round-about way, critiquing work. Some of us were trying to turn the conversation in such a way that they'd come to the critique of work, as work, on their own volition. Didn't work, ha.

Of course if they came to that critique they'd also come to the understanding that all venues available for rent in the Bay Area are rented from exploiters and thus further exploitation and that the only good alternative is to sieze the bookfair space unilaterally from whoever isn't paying attention.

Either that or just bloc up, smash some windows and burn PM Press or something.

i think the author's reference to "vaguely third-wave feminist positions" was a direct reference to your half-assed thinking. i'm sure you would have blown everyone's mind with your workerism. wow.

renting from the Kink warehouse is apparently much more offensive to some lefties than RENTING FROM THE GOVERNMENT LIKE THE BOOKFAIR DID FOR THE LAST MILLION YEARS. also one time i went to see roxanne dunbar ortiz speak and she spent the entire time talking about why marxism is way more "relevant" than anarchism. also she mentioned that her grandfather was in the IWW about 50 times

thank you for writing this!

"If we insist on entering this conversation, let's acknowledge that there is more than one issue at stake, and that creating strawmen back and forth does no benefit our position." really hammers home.

You can't deny that by providing a venue for an anarchist book fair, kink.com is definitely furthering the Mission's gentrification process.

You can't deny that uber anarchist lifetsylist hipsters moving to San Francisco from all over the nation hasn't led to yuppies tagging along in your wake. A transplant says what? Gentrification is started with an influx of transplants who make certain area's "cool" to live in. If you don't like it move to East Oakland but if hundreds of us did move to East Oakland guess who would follow? Real-estate investors looking to capitalize on the young white and "hip" market (already happening in West Oakland). Maybe we could all move to Antioch or Brentwood. Not that most of you know where that is seeing many anarchists in San Francisco are transplants but it's not "cool" to live in the suburbs now is it?

You are applying your brand of brain death morality in all the wrong areas.

There are many places where these same exploitations and mutilations happen, and guess what on top of it NOBODY GETS PAID. Not a conscience in sight. No, people ONLY GET SQUEAMISH when it comes to sex work -when women actually profit on it.

Women profit from sex work. There are a few madams here and there, and a few women porn producers, and some women who own sex shops and phone sex lines etc.

But the overwhelming majority of the businesses in sex work are owned by men.

And as we all should know, who owns the means of production makes the profit. It ain't women, you moralist freak.

Women profit from this work, yes. You are too stupid.

Men own the universities ! Men own the universities ! No one is getting paid ! Everyone there is a slave !

Can we go back to calling this the San Francisco Anarchist Book Fair. Why change the name right after there was an East Bay Anarchist Book Fair?

you forgot FUCK BOOK FAIRS.

if people would stop having stupid fucking book fairs this whole stupid argument could have been avoided

somebody call a wahhhhhhmbulance!

This retort is sooooo 2005 livejournal.

PS I love book fairs. Anarchy Mall 2K13!!!

will?

which will?

not gonna put hir on blast

the will in prison. free will!!!!

no, but if we're thinking of the same will, I'm flattered

But then where will I get anarchist books without a credit card?

Or WITH a credit card??

at first i thought this was stupid, but then I thought "whens the last time i saw literally anything cool happen at an anarchist bookfair..." answer: never.

exactly

I saw the RCP get their stuff trashed once. That was cool.

also lierre keith crying

the youtube clip AND all of the internerd drama unfolding afterwards.
so fucking priceless.

to think that this was kind of a preemptive assault on the future eco-stalinist, makes it all the more hilarious!

"whens the last time i saw literally anything cool happen at an anarchist bookfair..." The east Bay Anarchist bookfair had some amazing conversations on a variety of subjects, it was a bookfair, but also an intense conversation amongst the entire EBay Anarchist community. I doubt anything like that is planned for sf tho...

the 100-person prole stroll through the east village that followed the 2012 NYC book fair was pretty cool

This notion that anarchists are too good for porn is so bogus. I have female friends who are bi-sexual who get off on porn all the time and think about sex just as much we men do. There will be no revolution in this society with out total openness, honesty and transparency. And the porn explosion in this society can be explained away very simply. Why then?

Well let's just say that the foundation has already been laid down for a perfect situation to make it not only possible but likely. Technology is transforming human behavior like never before.

Once upon a time before the ".com explosion" human beings were much more active and in social contact with one another. The internet has become a tool of substitute for everyone looking for happiness when ever they feel deficiency in what ever human emotion they are going through. "The internet is here to save the day."

Computers are the main culprit of why the porno industry explosion. It is turning humanity into a bunch of socially retarded hermits that forgot how to communicate to get what they want and as a result they resort to a life of jacking off.

Why go through all the hard work to take a women out in this tough economy when you can have any woman you want just at the click of a button. THERE'S YOUR ANSWER! :P

"we men"

not talking to me, then

...And, just like that, we're back to complete fucking idiocy again. Thanks for your insightful contribution.

i hate everything about what you just said.

Its not that anarchists are or arenttoo good for porn its that some people are going to be offended. And in the end, they might have good reason to be.

This is good. thank you.

agreed

The truth is always good my friend and you are most definitely welcome.

-A- FOREVER

I really get the sense that you are *not actually* the keeper of truth, but of rhetoric and lies. no matter how well you have prepared this text to please everybody....you really don't know what you're talking about.

The misogyny and dishonesty of it is literally BUSTING OUT through the seams...

Yep, no truth here. Zero.

Plenty of truthiness tho.

I can remember in my teens when crust punk bands always made reference to this dystopian nightmare we are living and how it would eventually take over everything creating a world where everything real becomes meaningless.

The "internet" as a substitute for social life and contact with real women makes the case for a declaration of war against computers and technology being controlled and marketed by the system. It shows that the oppression we suffer from not only manifests itself in the form of police, bosses and bankers but even science and technology that many anarchists have overlooked.

Maybe the crusty's and anti-civ's were right. We belong in the stone age. All this shit must come down.

for some people who are not neurotypical, face-to-face interaction can be difficult and the internet can be preferable to in-person conversation. i think about this every time i hear people complaining about the postmodern lack of "real human interaction"

Yeah, it's not like people could lack social skills because of alienating mediums, like the internet, dummy.

And this is coming from someone who is pretty socially awkward.

its hardly alienating when people can find other people who believe the same thing, with geography negated. i never would have found other people who thought like i did, without the @news comments, which is a really sad fact, i guess.

the sun! it burns!

Why don't you quit trying to second guess (always falsely and stupidly) what I think about issues, and actually write something that you think, that YOU believe, or are you so fucking shallow that you actually have no thoughts or feelings of your own?

Also, if you continue to stalk me anywhere on the net, or contact anyone I know, I will contact the police. Stalking is one of those things I have no qualms about contacting the police about. In fact, the person who stalked me two years ago also contacted several of my friends to get info about me and where I lived.

__the real (A)

huh?

paranoia is the weirdest thing on anonymous sites.

okay sure....I know at least one of them has been charged with stalking in the past. and breaking some guy they used to date's windows and trashing his car.....last warning.

you are pissing into an ocean of piss.
i'm just trying to understand the context of calling people out in anonymous comments?
i.e i have no fucking idea who you are or what you are doing by warning me? should i assume that if i continue this conversation, someone on a different continent is going to have their life messed up by a paranoid anon, because that would be kind of funny..really.

The people who it is addressed to know who they are.

OR DO THEY???

They do. And I'm going to start getting 'really radical' with the law and their institutions if they persist in harassing me on social media, or stalk any person I know that is not actually a mutual friend.

1. You do realise @news comments are not 'social media', 'social commentary' might even be pushing it.
2. You do realise that you are actually coming across as the problem, not your mystery date.
3. You do realise that you are threatening to use the law, police, etc. in the wrong fucking place.

right?

You do realise that referring to my stalkers as a "mystery date" invalidates everything you've said - right, troll?

This is a public message on a public bulletin board--it's really not that hard to figure out. A message to the people who have been harassing and stalking me, and the the cretins who have been encouraging them.

you're acting like this public message board is your personal drama podium, and it's not.

i would love to see the police response to:
'person A posted an anonymous comment on an anarchist news site and i know it was them, and that they were addressing me. please use the full power of the law to go and do something about it, because that is stalking.'

are you actually insane?

Enough, troll. You're a bore.

u mad?

No, just mildly annoyed.

1) If you don't know what I'm referring to, shut up.

2) If you do know what I'm referring to and you're trolling, shut up.

3) Either way, shut up.

Shut yourself up, you fascist.

OK, anon #1, I admit it, I, anon #2, have actually been stalking you all along. Well guessed. No, wait, I'm anon #2 and you're the anon that's stalking me. Or maybe I'm just a random stranger with no clue about what's happening here making unhelpful comments. The wonders of completely anonymous conversations.

I guess that makes me anon#3 and I have been stalking all of you. Don't look away from your screens, I am pissing on everything you love/recording videos of you.

Sorry about your life, it's really not my fault..

If the "armory" doez not implode into its foundation, i suspect that this "bookfair" is a poser's wankathon.

The first two posts basically beat me to it, the selected critique of porn to be consistent would have to be part of an integrated critique of work something the mostly economically comforted 2nd wave feminist scumbags don't give two shits about.

As mentioned all property based venues probably have some exploitative gentrified process going on to some degree, its the porn pet peeve puritans that like to selectively home in on the porn space.

Btw maybe its the part of me that thinks some of the MRA thing is pertinent for today, but what is with the lead poster and the 'nasty old men comment'? What about a 50+ cougar who wants to pay a nice hung college age boy for his time and body, are old women nasty too, I suspect this poster.

Anyway its high time anarchists do what emma would do and dump feminism generally speaking, if there are any good things it has to say then take the positions and individuals on a case by case basis. Personally I find some egalitarian MRA strains more interesting even though for obvious reasons-rights-I reject it generally.

Feminism is largely 2 waves of sewage with a 3rd wave that is at best filtered, the position on sexuality alone by 2/3rds of its filthy ideological waves is reason enough for a movement defined by proud historical archetypical libertines to give it a final fuck you and good bye. It's academic institutional legalistic discourse

FUCK FEMINISM!

Sir Einzige said: "mens rights movement...fuck feminism etc..." And then I get to enjoy being lumped in with this position when I question specific RadFem theory. To deny women have been and are oppressed and then to deny them an avenue of liberation outside of an anarchist/communist revolution is a pretty reactionary stance to take but I think, in your defense...kinda, this is the knee jerk reaction many men and even women have to feminism specifically because of some of the theories found within various strains of feminism. Hello baby meet bath water... *tosses out the window*. Not the way to go in my opinion.

Good luck finding baby.

It all went down hill for the idea and concept after Fourier as far as I'm concerned. In terms of oppression I see no reason why special attention has to be given to the female variety, both sexes have suffered in died in various ways and neither one deserves a privileged avenue, in practice you end up being exclusionary and in time you see the growth and response of something like the MRA movement a movement I don't care to see grow any bigger and become a two pronged problem to go along with feminism.

What clearly has to happen is there needs to be a post fact o integration of both of these analysis, I think anarchism is the right form to do it considering that its critique of power and domination is as foundational as it gets, a number of the things that feminism gets credit for critiquing was actually already being done by a number of classical anarchists be it Emma Goldman, or French Individualists such as Armand relative to the times concerning the power dynamics of gender and sexuality.

What feminism did best is done better in anarchist discourse and you don't create and exclusionary analysis in the process which inevitably leads to the growth of the MRAs. It would have been nice if certain things MRAs talk about had been addressed by anarchists earlier in a proper integrating manner, unfortunately many think that being a feminist(along the ideological line) is a necessary part of being a modern anarchist.

I'm a big fan of the new age idea of men getting in touch with their anima and women their animus. I think this is what Fourier might have originally intended feminisme to be as he was always more a romantic then an enlightenment rationalist, but that ship has sadly sailed.

"Btw maybe its the part of me that thinks some of the MRA thing is pertinent for today, but what is with the lead poster and the 'nasty old men comment'?"

I suspect it has something to do with the fact that the poster is likely not attracted to old men but has had to have sex with them due to their economic circumstances, thus calling into question how consensual sex work (or any work) is.

"What about a 50+ cougar who wants to pay a nice hung college age boy for his time and body, are old women nasty too, I suspect this poster."
This is really weird...

Well I don't like working for them as I currently do, I don't however see the reason to add the nasty prefix, or other terms like creepy that women who are not the most attractive or of young age have to put up with in the same manner.

"This is really weird..."
Well I'd rather take directions in the sack then at the store.

because they are indeed nasty old men. it is subjective. i think they're nasty.

I agree with Jawesum too!
FUCK FEMINISM!

Wage slavery= work for a boss or enter into even shadier social relations (sex industry being one). Sex industry= have sex with dirty old men or starve? I think one reason some people may have a problem placing the two on equal footing (wage slavery/sex industry) is because many women enter the sex industry without those dynamics, they enter it with a choice and even further can choose who they sleep with. I chose to boost (steal) and panhandle when I was homeless, ended up in jail for stealing from corporate stores on Market St and it took a lot of hard work to get to the point of stability in my life, took about 15 years but I could've givin blow jobs on Polk St or done gay porn but chose not to....in that regard, with wage slavery, it's "work for a boss or enter into even more dangerous and questionable social relations" it's not "work for a boss or enter the sex industry". That's fatally deterministic don't you think? For me it wasn't either wage slavery or sex industry as the two choices for survival and yes if capitalism didn't exist and I had free and equal access to the means of production I wouldn't even be faced with these choices.

Do women in the sex industry by in large (economically speaking) have no other choice? If you have no choice then I think it's rape but could you not chose to lie/cheat/steal (hustle) your way to sustaining life or even peacefully panhandle and if that choice exists does it not imply the existence of choice and hence you would, in a way, be choosing to have sex with these men and thus it's not rape but I suppose the same argument can be used to imply we all chose wage slavery. Is the sex industry the only means of survival for most or a large portion of sex workers in advanced western capitalist nations? If that is indeed the case I oppose any person in that position entering the sex industry but should we ban/boycott or make the sex industry illegal on those grounds? We as anarchists should oppose anyone entering the sex industry who has no other choice. I agree with that.

Traditionally when access to the means of production is limited or denied to men they end up in prison or county jail (in some cases) and yes when this happens to women the sex industry seems to be the destination (in some cases) but not everyone who has no access or limited access to the means of production ends up in prison or prostitution. It would be deterministic to say so as we essentially have choices. I don't think this is advocating any sort of pro market stance, more philosophical, and, it more so comes from my experience with friends in the porn industry and my experience on the streets seeing women with no physical choice, as in, being physically coerced into prostitution.

Some of the non anarchist RadFem theory is all heterosexual sex under patriarchy is coercive (and thus rape) but the issue here is more so BDSM and the acting out of violence against women. We can explore some of Dworkins theories on porn or some of Sheila Jeffreys's views on the sex industry, S&M in particular, but all their views are built on the foundation that all women in the sex industry have no other choice, are being degraded and abused (raped) and or are brainwashed by patriarchy into maintaining rape culture which is the foundation of the "Geneva convention torture" nonsense comment. I don't think the OP was going that route I think it's more of a question concerning peoples choices if and when we are denied access to the means of production. In that case I would assume the only "moral" porn for an anarchist is porn or prostitution done under the conditions where a woman could provide food/shelter/clothing without doing porn. Would all the workers, even half.... even one worker at Kink.com not be able to survive without working there? We're talking basic survival. Are they disgusted with their means of survival or is it a choice to work there? I guess thats the real question, for anarchists. Do they go home and cry themselves to sleep at night? Do they feel violated, do they feel raped. Are they stuck in a living hell that they have to endure because they would be completely destitute without the sex industry? I wouldn't want to be in that position.

As far as the location being wrong from a workers rights perspective there is no place on earth outside of public open space where this wouldn't be an issue. You could use this logic to criticize people who buy I-Pads after the workers in China began killing themselves from the work place conditions. We can spider web into a million different scenarios from there. Anything from paying taxes, to using roads to participating in the economy in general but I think the main criticism of the location isn't labor practices it's the type of business. The porn industry is the real issue here.

Then we have the issue of gentrification. I'd rather take that topic up with a person who's not a transplant.

i'm sure being homeless and raped into prostitution was terrible. Not everybody has the same experience. it's a vast field, and their are many strata and personalities within it.

Because bodies can often be terrifying and gross, from what I understand it takes a certain kind of person with a certain kind of tolerance to be a (non-coerced) sex worker, and a very similar kind of person to be a doctor or nurse as well. Anybody who works with the human body is going to have issues to deal with, and going to have to be a certain kind of person - Anyone who sells the beauty and performance of their body : athletes....ballet dancers, who often deform and starve themselves...Models...even actors/actresses regularly have fake sex scenes and are selling 'a body'....There are varying amounts of stigma surrrounding ALL jobs of the people who work closely, over-intimately with the body or use their own body ...of course 'sex work' has the most stigma. It's only in recent times that all actresses weren't considered prostitutes, and so on...

Most of what you've said here is just fucking stupid. But that's enough I'm not the person to 'enlighten' you. If that's even possible in this context. It's not. People have seen to that.

Well lets get some things straight

In a civilized epoch of restricted economies where individuals are not in union with each other EVERYTHING IS FORCED AND COMPULSORY!

It's a matter of picking your slavery sadly unless through the harmonious process of attraction you find enough individuals that can make life the fun and games it can be.

If you think sex work is worse then the other kind then so be it, but as I and considerable others see it sex work clear on back to classical prostitution is a process of alienated work that can at best be a form of self managed slavery, not something to strive for but better then the other stuff for those of us who do not have your hangups.

and fuck david solnit, too. that liberal disingenuous fatherfucker.

Sorry you hated working in the sex industry. Some people do (I certainly did) and there is no one who is gonna convince me that I don't know my own mind. I was my own agent and chose who I wanted to see and who I didn't. I've worked for people who treated me like shit, where I wasn't in control of my work situation and who paid me shit wages. When I worked as an escort, my clients treated me like a respectful and appreciated human being and I can say w/ all honesty that all but one encounter was positive. What a shame you felt like you had to make money having sex w/ men as your only means of survival. It sounds like the experiences were just as crappy for the client as they were for you. If sex work was treated w/ an ounce of respect in our backwards society we might actually bust down the barriers that keep women and men oppressed.

too much bay area

Yeah, some mid-westerners use churches as venues. We are quite aware that churches have their own fucked up baggage, but so does everywhere else.

At least the church that all the Anarchists in Minneapolis used got burnt down by the sky god.

It's like when some radical calls me out for eating at McDonalds.
It's like, yeah, McDonalds is HORRIBLE! (and yes, the food is crap - that's a given, but that's not this debate is about)
But are you actually implying that "small businesses" are "better"? No! They are not.
Wal-Mart was a small business once, so was McDonalds - and guess what the logical conclusion to being a successful small business is?
And you call yourself an anti-capitalist?
EVERYTHING IS SHIT!
So "excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuse me for settling on something cheap and tasty!" {again, the "tasty" is not part of the debate here ;) }

do you want fries with your rape porn?

PLEASE.

"Where do you want me to eat, man?"
They never answer. At best, they'll call you out for using gendered language like "man".

why is sf/oakland taking over a news?

3/10 stories on the front page are about the Bay, which include one about the biggest bookfair in the country, one about the eviction of an amazing social center, and one about the life of an amazing comrade who was part of anarchy for the better part of 90 years.

This seems perfectly reasonable. Do more or write more if you're feeling salty.

One story about the biggest bookfair in the country is reasonable. One story responding to the 3 previous stories about the same fucking dumb bookfair is ridiculous.

1. do some anarchy in your town
2. write about it
3. put it on @news

The narcissistic, self perpetuating and culturally isolated anarchist book fair world can go wither in a corner. alone. ...but yes. death to the gentrifiers, bosses and liberals who defend "job creation"

<3 ^_^ o_0

to say that ‘we have choices’ in a colonizer society is a degenerate use of the concept of ‘choice’. omar mukhtar had ‘choices’ before mussolini colonized libya, and he chose to violently resist the forces of colonization until age 73 when he was caught and hung for refusing to submit. but how about the young omar mukhtars that grow up under colonialism?

the choice NOT to have a master, NOT to be kept in ‘bondage-and-discipline’ vanished. the colonial system is one of domination and submission, with sadistic people at the top who cultivate masochism in those below them. as thomas mann said of the rise of colonialism aka ‘fascism’;

“The capacity for self-surrender, he said, for becoming a tool, for the most unconditional and utter self-abnegation, was but the reverse side of that other power to will and to command. Commanding and obeying formed together one single principle, one indissoluble unity; he who knew how to obey knew also how to command, and conversely; the one idea was comprehended in the other, as people and leader were comprehended in one another.” --- Thomas Mann, ‘Mario and the Magician’

meanwhile, ‘choice’ is defined as “An act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities.”

edgar allen poe described ‘choice’ in ‘The Pit and the Pendulum’. in the centre of the prison cell is a pit that is indescribably foul, filled with rotting corpses, filth, diseased rats and degenerating madmen who ‘chose’ to join the rotting corpses, when the white hot flesh-searing walls of the prison cell kept moving inexorably inwards, advancing till there was barely enough floor between them and the pit for a man to stand on, giving them the ‘choice’ between burning alive, or falling into the pit.

the prisoner's fate is not pre-determined. as someone noted in this discussion, what we do with our colonized selves is not ‘determined for us’; i.e. we do ‘have choices’;

“not everyone who has no access or limited access to the means of production ends up in prison or prostitution. It would be deterministic to say so as we essentially have choices.”

so, when the young omar mukhtars grow up under colonialism, there will be more than the two choices of getting torched by going on the attack against being confined, or resigning oneself to living in the darkest, filthiest depths of the prison camp. a whole range of new choices will open up in the space between the two extremes, signalled by mussolini’s henchmen as they ‘unzip’ to expose new opportunities for those caught in the gap. and as thomas mann observes, submission to such domination has its 'silver lining' since self-abnegation to those above can advance you to the position where you, too can unzip to expose new opportunities for those below. that is; ... to take while giving is the archetypal topology of colonial authoritarianism.

meanwhile, the sons of osama mukhtar ... might prefer to burn in an attack against the encroaching white-hot prison walls, than 'choose' to grovel within the colonizer cell.

this is just to point out that ‘choice’ in the pre-colonized world meant something different than ‘choice’ within the bondage of a colonized world; i.e. the pre-colonized ‘choice’ was less like the choice between dominating or submitting that can transform one into a sadist or masochist, respectively.

didnt read

1000 times. This.

Bloc this fucking disasterpiece, or y'know trade your slave-wages with some capitalist-cum-anarchists...whateverrrr.

great post

"to say that ‘we have choices’ in a colonizer society". Expand please . Men being the colonizers and women the oppressed? Yes "the" patriarchy. Do you see women as being a separate class than men? Yes, you do. No need for allegory but to stay in the cell or to jump into the fire is hardly the choice most women face when entering the sex industry. Jean-Paul Sartre stated, "Freedom is what you do with what's been done to you" (to counter your quote of Poe) but I don't feel like delving into a non existing existentialist/philosophical debate surrounding determinism and agency I'd rather discuss the real world material hard facts. Simple question, do you think the workers at Kink.com have no other choice but to work there in order to survive? If so prove it and I'll be the first to throw rocks through the windows.

what you call “the real world material hard facts” is what i call the world of linguistic idealization. you’re throwing categories and labels around as if everyone has a common understanding of them, and as if they are ‘real things’ so that if we keep honestly inquiring into what is going on, we are going to discover ‘the truth’.

there is no ‘truth’. everything is in the process of continually unfolding.

“The psychological explanation: to extract something familiar from something unknown relieves, comforts, and satisfies us, besides giving us a feeling of power. With the unknown, one is confronted with danger, discomfort, and care; the first instinct is to abolish these painful states. First principle: any explanation is better than none. Because it is fundamentally just our desire to be rid of an unpleasant uncertainty, we are not very particular about how we get rid of it: the first interpretation that explains the unknown in familiar terms feels so good that one "accepts it as true." We use the feeling of pleasure ("of strength") as our criterion for truth.” ---Nietzsche, ‘Twilight of the Idols’

there are no ‘either/or’ questions and answers that are meaningful. therefore there is no point in your; “Simple question, do you think the workers at Kink.com have no other choice but to work there in order to survive?”

what ‘i think’ doesn’t matter, other than to ‘set up’ a position that you can EITHER agree with OR disagree with. if i liked to debate for the sake of debating, i could pick whatever side would generate the most smoke and heat.

but, to save you from saying it, i am well aware that you enjoy the intellectual debating and have little interest in exploring the processes for reaching consensus. if the debate was over whether to go with the colonizer view that the ‘good’ in constructing a new housing development outweighed the ‘bad’ in destroying some forest and buffalo etc., or the aboriginal view to the contrary, you would prefer to believe that there was ‘truth’ in one or the other of those positions, rather than to except that construction and destruction are conjugate aspects of the one dynamic of transformation.

the western way of viewing the world is of course not in terms of ‘transformation’ of the relational space we share inclusion in, but instead, in terms of ‘what things-in-themselves do’, so after we have defined and delivered a cast of iconic linguistic idealizations to which we attach our own meanings, such as ‘men’, ‘women’, ‘kink.com workers’ etc. [surprising, the range of different meanings different people can attach to these word-labelled categories], we can have a grand old time debating the merits of the actions of each of these word-things, as if they were definable ‘things-in-themselves’ whose meanings everyone was in agreement with. in fact, we could hand off the project to the top college debating teams and do a best-of 21 series.

not that you would be interested in it, but there are non-rational ways of sorting things out such as the circle process, where those involved [who are most impacted] revisit the initial question and deepen it [which blurs it by making it an ‘affair of the heart’] to the point that broad agreement becomes possible. or, the truth could be determined by a mud wrestling contest, and yes, large breasted women do pop involuntarily into my mind, but they are strong smiling amazons reeking of authenticity.

but don’t let me keep you any more than i have from your intellectual search for ‘the truth’

didnt read

emile just burned you hard, but i have some doubts that you can understand how.

Way to go emile, who is exactly in the business of obfuscation here? Me ? I'm laughing a little, but, not in a condescending fashion....laughing non the less. I find the colonizer language to be an attempt to automatically frame the discussion in a manner that presupposes "the" patriarchy has a universal and linear domination of women everywhere at all times which is the foundation of your view that these women have no other choice but to work in the sex industry in order to survive. If there is no material basis for your views then it's pure idealism. As I said in an earlier post this is a problem within the anarchist community in general, throwing materialism aside, almost completely, in favor of idealism. Where do these scenarios exist at kink.com other than in your mind? Show me the workers there have no other choice but to work there in order to survive. Show me this and I'll begin my transition to accepting the sex negative feminist position.

I think you miss point
of course people who work in sex industry have many other option
but each option has its own concluding and path
people always behave logically according to the facts they have and the manner in which they interpret those facts
so the most logical conclusion is the sex industry, even though other possibilities and even more importantly probabilities exist.
the universe is not a billiards table, but an unevenly distributed lotter

that's me not emile

from a society that constantly demands conformity, the individual, in its purest form, will be drawn to and demand noncomformism, even when that simply means a different sort of conformity, much as an anarchist does. anarchists are a lot like sex workers like that.

my initial comment was to do with ‘choices’ and what happened to them under colonization.

i don’t know about you, but i can feel the ‘horror’ of omar mukhtar and what he lost and his children and grandchildren lost (a classic example of a non-colonized tribesman who lost the resistance battle and ‘got colonized’).

today, we live in the conditions he was trying to avoid, and they are the norm for us; i.e. these pit and the pendulum conditions are like water to a fish. so your question does not acknowledge how the overall system works, ... by focusing in on sex trade workers and questioning their choices, you seem to imply that the rest of us are free and making better choices.

let’s examine the horror of the pit and the pendulum that omar mukhtar saw coming. what colonization did was to trap people inside of a closed area and put a God-like power at the top, equip him with a standing army and police force and establish central authority enforced laws. if you were close to God, you had all kinds of privileges and could virtually use and abuse people ‘below you’. this set up a power gradient where people could climb the ladder and rise up the ladder and take their turn at abusing those below them. this is the way authoritarian systems work. Omar Mukhtar jr. was forced into committing suicide [by resisting] or participating in this sado-masochistic system. that’s the horror of it. by accepting colonization one participates in hierarchical system where those on top exploit those below, and you can’t get out of it because the top dog controls a standing army and police force and the justice system is a ‘retributive’, moral law based justice system THAT WILL PUNISH YOU for protesting, but not the people at the top who are abusing you and all those ‘on the bottom rungs’. the top dog and his army and police force and justice system will protect the cronies in the upper echelons as they grow more and more powerful by controlling land and wealth which gives them the power and the law protected right to abuse those on the bottom.

who defines the ‘jobs’ that those on the bottom are going to get in this pit and the pendulum system? it is not the people on the bottom. they can’t say; ‘i think i will become a singer and make a living by singing for people’. the people with the money and the power will decide what they want to do with their money and power, and that is what decides the job list for those on the bottom. this situation arises because colonization ‘traps people in a hot box’, with a God-like authority on top with his standing army, police force and justice system which keeps everyone in the hot box. as the cronies at the top monopolize land, wealth and power, those at the bottom can live in the garbage dump or find out what job openings are available. they can’t bang on the encroaching walls and break free of the hot box, they will ‘get burned’ and get a jail sentence to encourage the rest to just accept the hot box system. they can fall into the pit and live in the street squalor or in a garbage dump, or they can find out what job openings are available, and the most obvious and numerous jobs for those near the bottom are giving sex.

my point has been that the colonizer system is a ‘closed system’, one is locked in the colonizer cell together with the wealthy and powerful, and every time there is turbulence and instability, the people at the bottom have the following options (a) revolt and get shot, (b) live and die in squalor, (c) check out the remaining job openings. as shakespeare’s prince hal said in Henry IV;

“Prince. Why then, it is like, if there come a hot June and this civil buffeting hold, we shall buy maidenheads as they buy hob-nails, by the hundreds.”

the colonizer recipe is; pen the people into a closed land area. install a god-like central authority backed up by a standing army and police force and a retributive moral law based justice system. protect the wealth, privilege and power of the upper levels keep the people at the bottom in line as they are exploited and abused by those above.

so, that’s my comment on ‘the choices people have’. i was talking ‘people’ in general within the colonizer system. males on the bottom of this system get exploited and abused in various ways as they ‘choose’ what is available to them. for women, the job openings are heavily weighted towards the sex trade.

if you want to look at particular women, and talk about their choices, ... and forget about what omar mukhtar lost, fine. what i am saying is that when the floods like Katrina come in a colonizer society, the people on the lower rungs drown. like Prince Hal says, when the hard times come, all these women come out of the woodwork eager to get fucked. if it is their choice, why the big surge? how come they all get horny at the same time? could it be an infectious form of nymphomania that comes coincident with hard times that has them all choosing the same thing at the same time?

If I'm reading your comment right, what you're saying is that you should not write? Essentially? Eh?

for gods sake dont tell emile to expand on anything

Oh lordy I just can't stop being offended! Someone get me a fainting couch quick!

If you are going there to just jack shit from all the tables until someone calls the cops, I'll give you a fucking circle A medal to pin to your chest. All other attendees should probably just start working for Kink - you obviously enjoy being humiliated and dominated (by consumer culture.)

If I wake up tomorrow and another one of these Kink.com whatever book fair threads is up here, there is going to be hell to pay. Got it? Hell. 2. pay.

You want to talk about porn, ok. Don't fucking create a whole stupid spectacle spectacle with stupid anarchists and stupid radfems who don't necessarily have their jimmies rustled, but wanna make sure other people do so they can manipulate them and thereby increase rustled jimmies production by oh one two even three hundred percent.

This gorilla is unimpressed.

This post is so f-ing horrible.

L'Anarquista dans los Estados Unidos es muy muerto.
You all are lamers and posers and The Bay is the absolute
pinnacle of sloth, attitude and stupidity. This "fair" is a freak carnival,
There is no hope for the world because of your all's continued
horrifying choices. Ask not for whom the bells toll.

Boojhatred said: "Ask not for whom the bells toll". Hemingway hated women.

Its just insensitive. People who hide behind normalcy, there's nothing more bourgious. But Id still protest GG Allen. Why? Because of the same reaeons Id protest pornography not as an abstraction but as an institution. It is a rape apologist culture. No doubt. And this as a venue is insensitive to people who might have had to suffer some form of sexual violence and or sexual exploitation. Kink.com is no more abhorant or exploitative than any other area of the porn industry. But that being said Id take issue, probably more so if this were being held in Jenna Jamisons pad.

Am I offended? No. But if a friend were, Id get it. And Id probably side with them.

Pure rubbish, I must say.

yahoo

I don't get what's wrong with play?
I know there's a lot of things terribly wrong with the porn industry and have banished all manifestations of the "boss" from my bedroom, but if it's consensual and playplay what's the problem?
PM Press gets some decent stuff printed, but it's nothing special.
KINK.com is boring and exploitative
This bookfair does seem kinda monopolized and uncool, but I'm not from the bay so I haven't been looking to hard for details.
all i see is a flame war

I agree with you. But from an individualists standpoint. If someone felt uncomfortable with a fetish I had, I'm not going to throw it in their face. If one person says "I was raped I don't feel comfortable sitting in a building where 10 guys enacted a rape fantasy two days ago," that's so fucking unfair. I've engaged in rough sexual fantasies, I've also had them shot down. I didn't make the person sit down with me the following day and watch bondage porn. The feminist critiques get thrown out when you only have someone with emotional trauma sitting there saying "I just don't want to think about it. Anyone who creates a culture war out of sexual fetishes is an idiot.

The book fair is happening in a building *owned* by kink.com. It's not the building the porn is made in. It's an old drill court that gets rented out for events. It's been leased to The Armory Community Center, LLC wich is probably owned by the guy who runs Kink, but it's not Kink or the company that owns the Armory. They are three separate entities; one owns the building, the other two lease buildings on a fuckhuge campus for entirely separate purpose. Also, it's a fucking armory so if you want to worry about ghosts and evil vibes maybe you could worry about all the killing machines processed there or the conscripts who were brutalized and brainwashed before being sent out to kill and die for "their" country. There is a cultural war about sexual fetishes because the 2nd wavers, including Roxanne Dunbar Ortiz made this a culture war about sexual fetishes and continue to do so to the detriment of reasonable conversations.

actually they do make porn there. and it is owned by kink.com. and they are yuppie scum.

They make porn in the drill court now?

Bay Area is taking over anarchist news because anarchist news is the shit.

No but really though.

If you want my honest opinion and I know you do, because it means a lot to you,

I'm really tired of my daily routine of coming to anarchist websites. Anarchist bookfairs are cool. It gives me a sense of hope but when its all over I seem to feel more empty than before I showed up. 2 days is not enough and there should be a lot more large planned activities in SF and Oakland. Throw Berkeley in there too. Why not.

I need something to come home to besides anarchist news. This doesn't cut it anymore. Anarchist bookfairs and websites are not complete without continuous disruptions of the social order threatening its ability to function and there for its very existence. The threat of disruption that was presented by OCCUPY is now dead. And even thought it has its anarchists roots, it didn't have the anarchist label.

If you can have a bookfair with the banner of anarchy hosting thousands, why not concerts? or other large events drawing thousands? We have so much potential to do better than this. I don't think we are limited by anything other than our own imaginations. You can give your revolution more love than just a bookfair that happens once a year and your daily anarchist reading on @ news.

Large events can fund lots of stuff in the Bay Area if not other places. We could use funds for training exercises to help each other move more fluently in the streets. We could work on our skills to keep each other safe. Strategy Wargames Tactics. Practical stuff. Serious shit.

Occupy might be dead but that doesn't mean the system is out of the woods. Somethings going to fuck up sooner or later and there's nothing better than being prepared for when shit goes down again. The worst thing is not being prepared for the police state and getting your ass handed to you. It happened in Oakland to a lot of people in Occupy. But it didn't have to go down like that if everyone was prepared and well taught.

THIRD thread about this stupid fucking book fair.

NO MORE STUPID FUCKING BOOK FAIRS

Fourth, actually - we had the one about it being all PM Press, the one about it being rape porn, the thread about the bookfair collective's response, and now this thread about how all the other threads are dumb and useless.
I actually quite like bookfairs, I just think this amount of discussion is ridiculous. Can we at least stop talking about it until it actually happens, and then get on with discussing how someone threw a pie made of water over the Deep Green Revolutionary Communist stall or something?

this isn't about a bookfair though, it's about us either reaching or approaching the high water mark of the domination of many US anarchist milieux by obnoxious, "sex-positive" vanguardists. the fact that the nihilists among us have barely bothered to turn their critical capacity in that direction betrays the aristocratic, antinomian aesthetic motivations still guiding most so-called nihilist anarchists.

i'll still defend this choice in the face of all the transphobic radfems coming out of the woodwork at the chance to show how stupid anarchists are, but... hey folks this choice of location was an unfortunate decision/compromise, and some of the grounds on which it's being defended are in fact pretty stupid. sexual neoliberalism in the clothing of queer theory has made a small beachhead in contemporary anarchism in recent years... the fact that it arrives chased by an angry horde of revanchist dworkinites shouldn't prevent us from developing our own negative assessments alongside our positive ones.

People of every sex and ideology have painfully limited cognitive processes when it comes to sex/work. Anyone with a brain (and who is a real libertarian/anarchist) wouldn't cast their lot definitively with any of them. It's huge mess and no one's going to come to any significant understanding of it on fucking @news.

I'm bringing a supersoaker just in case.

anarchists who seriously think this bookfair is giving material support to a corporation that markets rape (... etc) need to band together for mutual support, go in and flip some fucking tables. or is that too triggeringly christlike?

steal shit from PM Press. they are the ones responsible for the event. and they are fuckwads.

define skank whore who sets the bar at an all time low across various platforms. surprise they don't work in the sex industry.

even if you initialize the language in such fashion, you are still left to contend with the inherent null value that the variable name ("skank whore") does not provide a value that has been assigned. it is only a descriptor and a place holder for the values and although it is possible of course any variable can be named anything regardless. but in any case, without an assignment, it will produce an error within a function and comparisons in some cases.

This site sounds like it has been taken over by a bunch of hungover bourgeois college youth.

So I was watching some of this rape "fantasy" last night out of curiosity and mostly in the interest of furthering the scientific call for more knowledge of human relations. Somewhere along the way I sort of lost empathy for the girl and by the third or fourth nut shot I actually noticed I had an erection. It seems this "in the interest of science" thing is a little more than I had anticipated. Maybe I should have actually studies science instead of this pathetic humanities degree that I got which basically amounts to being raped by debt collectors. Monsieur Jensen is similar to Jesus in some respects. Sort of in the sense that he will be crucified and sainted in the end. in the end.

and now ladies and gentlemen, I believe my wookie friend has fixed the hyperdrive stabilizers and I must be on my way. if anyone is interested in space coffee, I am headed towards the degaba system, two blocks east, right by the space-711 and the space McDonalds. someone told me there's a girl out there with lasers in her eyes and flowers for hair...and three boobs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5woXb-XnSYQ

I'm mostly just disappointed in kink.com for stooping so low as to allow their building to be used by Bay Area anarchists. Probably the worst thing they've ever done.

or, at least, the thirsty desperate politicians among them who will be out in force talking about how awful kink com is when their university kills millions of people.

LOL @ "unfair labor practices"

This whole issue is consumer politics as fuck.

Is sex work consensual? Is work consensual? Is capitalism consensual?
No for fucks sake. None of it is.

Go with something that's cheap, spatially acceptable, accessible by train, most comfortable for attendees and the least-bad of all of the horrible things. This is fucking obvious.

Clearly picking this location was dumb and it should've been moved as soon as the complaining began. Not because Kink.com isn't an ethical green organic vegan fair trade worker-run sex-posi totes queer femme poc business; but because the event is gonna be worse now that a bunch of people probably won't come.

If it was at a university and people didn't mind attending then fuck it just do it there. Are universites OK? Hell no. Military research and development, reproduction of laborer class etc. etc.
But if we take for granted that capitalism has produced a bunch of fucked up relations - which we do, right? - then just take a hard utilitarian approach to what's gonna work best for the internal dynamics of the bookfair.

But what the hell, maybe forcing the debate is OK. At least now we get to see how liberal most of the 2nd and 3rd wave feminists are. Not all feminists are anarchists. Must remember.

If people don't learn from this that kink com is no worse than their university or church then they can fuck off.

Shed the pathos about organizing the fucking bookfair.

Have it where people want it. Don't have it where they don't.

I understand why people hate Kink and why they hate other places. We are anarchists! We should hate these places.
I don't understand why people are scared to use whatever location is gonna make for the best bookfair, with the assumption that it has to be in a fucked up place.

Yes, most anarchists will be more "comfortable" at a university, where all the sado-masochism and murder is hidden, because that's where "they" work so that makes it "good". Great.

From this article: "While certainly allegations of BDSM being 'torture porn' are self-evidently ridiculous..."

From kink.com: "In our videos, you will watch as some of the best riggers in the business bind, torture, and fuck gorgeous women."

Let kink.com do their own marketing work.

I love watching morons who are behind all kinds of non-consensual pornography stalking harassment rape and exploitation try to wrap their tiny little minds around consensual bdsm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_bondage

I've engaged in rough play, for better or worse, but sexual violence in Japan is through the roof. And its always been. The closest thing to linking pornography to sexual violence come from broad studies of Japanese culture. Not a good corallary.

some interesting points ...but the author publically telling people to fuck off, people who they may or may not know... people who are part of our community...it does nothing to help anything. the author of this article has every reason to remain anonymous, i understand that...but seriously thats how your gonna end your piece with a fuck you.. im so sick of tearing each other down. bleh..

Yeah, we should get more inspirational preaching from people like scott crow and the Rebecca Solnit! Oh wait, they were there last year...

Finally, a statement we can all agree on: FUCK EVERYTHING.

Rape is one extreme but political correctness can also be another.

It doesn't take an anarchist to be against rape. Most people in society are opposed to such caveman jungle like behavior. The definition of rape has definitely expanded to mean other things beyond standard rape and I don't really need to elaborate much on that now that its become common-sense.

This whole issue of sex and rape being tied in with oppression in anarchist circles have gone so much to the extreme that sex it self or even thinking about it is criminal. I feel like I'm walking among prudish Christians than actual anarchists who were once open and comfortable with their sexuality and sex. You guys seem to be all out of balance. And that's not natural or healthy.

The hippie movement had that balance and harmony down like no other really. Everyone kind of just accepted each other with out judgments and harsh criticism. Love was literally in the air and you can feel it.

Being with anarchists is like being with dead people. No warmth. Just cold all around.

"Most people in society are opposed to such caveman jungle like behavior."

how is rape in any way "caveman jungle" like behavior? I assure you that it has been done more by people who are civilized than those who were not.

"This whole issue of sex and rape being tied in with oppression in anarchist circles have gone so much to the extreme that sex it self or even thinking about it is criminal."

Apparently you haven't been around the right Anarchists, as all of the anarchists I know do not treat sex in such a way, so before you start claiming that all Anarchists think that way I would look harder for Anarchists who are not that way as they are around.

https://hotnerdgirl.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/picard-facepalm.jpg

will the real slim shady please stand up?

actually, quite the opposite. a lot of behavior that you would normally think of as a violation now passes for normal sexual behavior.

this is a result of the first paragraph's dialectic problem. Either you are a rapist or a victim. there is real rape and real violation but that doesn't prevent others from making false accusations. indeed, a look at history and current statistics indicate that a large majority of the men in prison have a high likely hood of being falsely accused. the "rapist" label is a method of social control by elites. it exists regardless of whether the actual manifestation of a sexual act without (informed) consent actually occurred or not. but it's quite ridiculous to say it never occurs. when as indicated above, the line between rape and sex is so blurred, anyone can be accused of rape should that be necessary. i've had radfems accuse me of rape apologism then go hang out with real life actual rapist no less. go figure eh?

the hippie movement sucked. period.

can't argue with that last sentence though.

I don't think anyone here is saying that sex is "criminal" and nobody is being "prudish."

The point is that the website, and a lot of BDSM, has vague advertising strategies that clearly anticipate misogyny and seek to capitalize on anti-woman and anti-trans hatred and violence.

It's not that BDSM can't be consensual. It's that the BDSM pornography industry uses language such that the viewer may imagine that it's not actually consensual - and that is what is supposed to make them cum. They can imagine that the type of people they hate are actually being tortured against their will and they can jerk off to it fantasizing about actual offensive violence.

BDSM all day long who gives a fuck. But you can't deny the relationship between capital, spectacle, advertising, sex, patriarchy that is prevalent in this entire set-up.

The language and advertizing of porn are but a reflection of the society as a whole.

In terms of misogyny 'anti-woman' and 'anti-trans' at those are a number of feminist terms of abuse that are never properly substantiated any way.

Oh and did I ever mention snobbishly over-educated and BORING!

Awww yea! Porn house bookfair?? I like Anarchyism more everee day.
were da whyte wimin at??

Anarchists may not be coming out in open saying "sex is a crime" and "thinking about sex is bad" but they certainly are leaning in that direction with all their rhetoric. There are ways of insinuating "sex is bad" that without actually coming out and saying it. There are ways of attacking it by using other words and communicating it to other through facial expression, body language and sending out bad vibes. It feels like no anarchist enjoys sex anymore naturally because everyone of them has been victimized in some sort of sexual way or something?

I can't even acknowledge a hot attractive women just by noticing her with my eyes in fear anarchist friends might notice and give me a hard time about it. Like I'm evil because it might give me a boner.

That type of shit.

I don't know what anarchism has become in this country but the people in every circle sure have a way of further alienating people and making people feel uncomfortable with their human self. I can't even act human. I have to walk on fucking egg shells all the time like a fucking robot machine. THAT'S FUCKED UP!

One thing i don't think anyone has addressed is why kink.com produces gang rape and other extreme porn: Internet Porn is addicting. Once you watch it for awhile you get desensitized to the imagery and begin looking for more extreme stimulation. It's like crack and video games put together. The people who produce this stuff are not about sex positive representation and community. They are about hooking people on porn and making MONEY off of that addiction. The apex of predatory capitalism. A whole generation of children, boys and girls, are growing up with internet porn and their sexuality is becoming screwed up by it. This is the opposite of sex positivism.

then you musta missed my comment in the "on recent criticisms..." thread:

"sort of beside the actual debate -- as a comrade, i hope also in sexual freedom, i really think people need to reconsider whether calling people who don't buy the ideological premises of sex-positivity 'prudes' is still a technique that impresses or attracts more than it repels. if there's anything in this mess that truly smacks of being dated to the 60s/70s it's that. i'm seeing a lot of backlash to capitalism around the world follow the vanguard form of patriarchal attacks on the sexual liberalism of the 'westernized' class strata, and i'm seeing a lot of it being successful. i really don't think actually existing capitalist porn is doing sexual freedom any huge favors in the process. the form of porn as a product is about addiction as much as anything. i can see the appeal in wanting to lash out against it on those grounds."

"One thing i don't think anyone has addressed is why kink.com produces gang rape and other extreme porn: Internet Porn is addicting. Once you watch it for awhile you get desensitized to the imagery and begin looking for more extreme stimulation. "

The likes of De Sade were around long before the internet, and believe or not if you study classical literature it was women who actually gave rise to archetypical rapist not men. Also the term sex positivism has become a bit of a euphemism, sex is a sensation, with extremes of top down degradation and or the opposite.

Certain individuals have a fascination with defecation in sexual encounters(usually the bottom role) In a state of anarchy I would expect things to become even more unhinged.

let me guess... could one certain individual be... you? (and what 'classical' literature are you reading, son?)

if things are going to get even more unhinged maybe it's time to re-think this anarchy thing...

No actually I quite like unhinged human societies.

but i don"t like being pooped on!!!

Go watch one guy one jar, humans are capable of all kinds of defecating things.

i don't care i still don't want to be pooed on

In a state of anarchy...

Things will become more unhinged...

Your liberal can't understand the socio-political origin of something like BDSM. Repression creates deviance. Or external repression creates internal repression, such as BDSM, as well as much less trendy things like rape and child abuse. This is why contexts like the Inquisition, or the fascist regimes in Spain and Italy were contexts where the most normal people were actually doing the most perverse, wicked things in the closet, starting with their own family or within formal institutions. Because repressive regimes also create areas of privacy, even secrecy, where everything is allowed in terms of abuse of people, and other species too. But that's got nothing to do with anarchy.

Nothing is more revealing on this than Pasolini's "Salo or the 120 Days of Sodom".

And you're completely taking Sade's likings out of their context of extreme religious and State repression. De Sade was the closest thing to today's anarcho-nihilo-insurrectionalist, a complete social misfit and agent of chaos, but his thing was all about total subversion of the social order, and not just geting high on fake or real sexual abuse with his little sect of buddies just to feel powerful and superior.

Maybe the porn industry would suffer a profit loss if women all of a sudden made them selves easier to approach by males and just made them selves more available. That would totally reverse the internet porn trend.

Nope. All that would happen is porn in general would become like gay porn.

I for one would love to see women become the equivalent of gay/bisexual males.

maybe women would make themselves easier to approach if there wasn't about a one in three chance she would get raped for it

And there's a difference between easy to approach and "easily accessible." Porn makes women at least appear to be "easily accessible." That's not necessarily why I take issue with the venue, but yeah.

Look at Steubenville. Not only did those imbociles not see anything wrong with what did in many ways amount to torture, but they didn't think the on line community would either. To them it was, "meh, I've seen worse on the internet." I'm a fan of voyerism as an abstraction, but an internet saturated with violence begat oht of, yeah, male sexual impotence that begets, violence towards most usually women that begets, fear that begets...

Steubnenville is much more a product of fucked up suburban american culture then it is based on any internet porn, its a diffuse problem in certain small town parts of the usa and by no means part of some mythical 'rape culture'.

There's been a don't ask don't tell policy that has long applied to the upper classes in that particular part of the world.

Yeah, but if they were posting this on line without thinking anyone would have a problem with it obviously they see the internet as some sort of, if not component in that suburban middle class paradigm, than at least some sort of rape free zone. I'm not against fantasies and fetishes. But pornography is part of a stupid fucking culture war. Some of it valid some of it not. But I can understand why people are upset over the venue. I'm not necessarily agreeing with them. But I get it.

Well the problem is those kids involved come from a family and societal structure where things are swept under the rug here's a good video(albeit anecdotal) on what makes these places what they are.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jb8IJ8n9j4

Again what happened there is MUCH bigger then internet porn and precedes it significantly.

Only people on the feminist sauce take those rape statistics at face value

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdOFSvD0b94

Its funny, I actually was vaguely aware of a rape apologist and a victim blamer whose name was Joe Rogan back in high school. Funny fucking world huh.

The fact that you like Joe blows-again immediately invalidates everything you ever say. That guy is an oblivious self-important liberal jock moron who is addicted to the sound of his own voice. At least Doug Stanhope had teeth when he used to be funny.

Never read the comments Sylvio never read the comments Sylvio never read the comments Sylvio never read the comments Sylvio

A lot of what you're saying, even when not vindicated by the 1 in 5 chance of RAPE (most liberal estimates), is percieved. But honestly, I had a woman run across the street to give me her damn number one time I looked at her like"settle your ass down. I'm eating." Girl cries rape to get laid, no kidding. And I took it seriously. Very. She just wanted affection. Now I bring it up not only am I not the drunken rapist but the damn thing never happened period. But women operate the same as men independently of social constraints. Which most of us don't. But women and men both live in fear. Its a process to undo but its a fucking process. Moralizing fear is stupid. Its inevitable. Id call you a victim blamer but in reality, sounds like you ain't getting any and are a victim too. Patriarchy is so widespread and deep it effects so many facets of our lives. So many. Bt one in five at best. We can't get the damn rapists out of our own community and you can't see at least understand it when women or anyone for that matter takes issue with kink.com.

I am 12 and what is this?

Why doesn't everyone just shut the fuck up and burn something down?

if you haven't noticed, my friend, this is what we're arguing about...

Hands down, most stupid comments since at least the whole "Leah" thing.

I don't much like the choice of venue either, but putting together an event like this involves time and money constraints. It's easy to sit behind a screen and flame, but as someone who's had to scrounge for event space, I understand well that choices are limited and it's impossible to please everyone. I'd respect anybody's decision not to go, but seriously, boosting shit and flipping tables? If you're so tough, why not go and actually disrupt a Kink.com filming? Oh, wait, that would require leaving the comfortable world of online scene drama.

If you wanna be an anarchist, have some respect for other people's autonomy.

"Wankers need autonomy too." - The AnarchoHipsters

edgy man, edgy

crud said:"Wankers need autonomy too." - The AnarchoHipsters

'edgy man, edgy'.

Kinda weird that you nab my internet name...internet= weird. I don't know...maybe you just have good taste?

Pornography is freedom of speech.

lol, very astute. (If you're mocking the defenders of kink.com)

It's nice when really shitty posters go to the trouble of giving themselves names so we know their comments will be garbage without having to read them. Thanks for that, Sir Einzige.

yes

"Pornography is freedom of speech"

lol

That article is spot on!

"against the redevelopment of our neighborhoods by 'kinky' tech yuppie assholes"

THe simpler, more accurate way to say it is: "Gentrification through hipster invasion."

And yeah, this begins with the art galleries and the kinky/BDSM/bio-vegan-queer petit-bourgeois fetish.

The article is just a celebration of not taking sides. And I probably adhere to this more than anything, but honestly, its not saying much. Its a declaration of "meh everyones full of shit.". But is that a good position to take? I mean, is "what can I do about it" relavent? I'm personally not very sure.

If you look closely it *is* taking sides, while presenting itself as though it's not. (For example tacking *and all work* at the end of [sex work] with a completely disingenuous smirky sigh. )

I wish more people were better at reading tone and breath, and had a keener intuition. I guess that's something that only very rarely, or not at all, you can learn in school.

Long live Larry Flynt

All this pre-fair drama makes you wonder if there will there be security... anyone want to place bets? And yes defacto "non-security security" counts.

"All this pre-fair drama makes you wonder if there will there be security." Maybe we can hire the Pinkerton Detective Agency? (this is a joke)

You know what they say about jokes ah haha aha ha

How is the use of the building adding to the gentrification process? Are all the "yuppies" into BDSM? Hell, I haven't been able to afford living in the Mission since the mid 1990's (other than a studio the size of a walk in closet).

yes

I highly doubt the "yuppies" (trendy ass suburbanites who move to the city to hipster the fuck out who have over 1500 dollars a month to spend in rent/mortgage) are all in there partaking in BDSM. That would be quite teh spectacle though. I'd pay to watch that, I wouldn't masturbate but I'd pay non the less. Maybe we can arrange something during the book fair? Maybe we can dominate the yuppies, film it live and make some cash? (I joke)

the yuppies are making $$$ of off selling rape porn to internet masturbating anarchists

Thanks for writing this, could not have said it better myself! You (the author of this article) have a very articulate, spot on critique of the vapid as hell debate that touches on everything that many of the hoes I know think.
About to go suck the dick of a washed up, vegan restaurant owning sleezy hipster and will hate it the whole time, even though he has tattoos, probably likes feminism (and fucking feminists) and played bass in my favorite band in the 80's.
FUCK WORK.

Also, to anyone who cares, the PM press offices are a block away from the Hold Out and yeah. You should just go there, especially if you don't like them.

You're just being transphobic!

Anarchy and Pornography both support Freedom of Speech.
Many here are certainly exercising their freedom to talk in circles but when do we get to the point that the drill court, housing the book fair, has nothing to do with porn? So what if a porn mogul owns it, we don't forgo roadways because the government owns those. Are you taking a secret tunnel to the event? No...
This debate falls short of any meaningful dialog because it focuses on generalities, most of which are not true.
Shall we condemn our parents for having sex, our children for exploring life or whales because they harbor parasitic remoras?
No, because those, are also foolish arguments.
Take it down a notch, go to the Book Fair, enjoy the exchange and go home.
Long live sex and our freedom of speech.

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