Abolish Prisons

Source: https://raddle.me/wiki/abolish_prison

I'm genuinely disenchanted by how many internet anarchists seem determined to spend their time debating how they would build and administer prisons after their fantasy revolution. This new generation of YouTube-informed "anarchists" is honestly hopeless: people who have somehow managed to take a political tradition founded on opposition to prisons, police, and state coercion and turn it into an endless exercise in designing "better" ways to police and imprison people.

We're not getting a revolution in our lifetimes. More importantly, the world we actually inhabit is already structured around a vast prison-industrial complex. People, including countless anarchists, are being incarcerated, surveilled, policed, deported, criminalized, and subjected to state violence right now. Yet instead of working toward abolition, standing in solidarity with prisoners rotting away in cells, or even imagining radically different forms of social organization beyond police, prisons, and state coercion, this new crop of anarchists would rather spend energy debating the finer points of administering imaginary prisons in some hypothetical post-revolutionary future.

The priorities are baffling. There are real prisons, real prisoners, and real state violence happening right now, but the urgent question for these anarchists is what their hypothetical (democratic) prison system should look like in an imaginary future run by them.

Sure, they avoid outright calling them prisons. Their brave leader, YouTuber Anark (Daniel Baryon), prefers the more Orwellian-sounding phrase "monitored democratic rehabilitation communities with required rehabilitative measures." But world-salad euphemisms don't change the underlying institution he’s advocating for.

He says "permanent separation of citizens from society" should be rare, but necessary when someone is deemed an "active threat to the community." He then outlines a "tiered justice system," a "constitution" containing "laws," and courts i.e. his "community justice councils" that would try criminals, whom he calls "sequestered citizens" and "violators of the common law." Those councils would determine what "the process of rehabilitation and reparation" should look like, including when someone is forcibly removed from the community and placed in one of these "monitored democratic rehabilitation communities."

According to his fans, it's not really prison if we call the cells "democratic involuntary living quarters," the inmates "democratically instituted detainees," and the guards "democratic rehabilitative facilitators."

WTF is happening with these so-called anarchists who insist their leader isn't describing a prison? If they ever got their revolution, I suppose disruptive wreckers like me would be sent straight to the Democratic Rehabilitation Internment Facility for reeducation, where I could learn that my confinement is actually liberatory because the not-prison committee voted on it.

The whole discussion is perverse. What happened to simply calling coercion coercion? Where is the intellectual honesty? Why are so many self-described anarchists reaching for increasingly elaborate euphemisms for reproducing coercion rather than simply admitting that they want prisons?

They loudly insist I propose a “better system” to replace prisons, while treating as the only acceptable answer a marginally more humane or more democratically administered version of incarceration. I offer them something different: anarchy. And their response is always the same: that I’m merely using “anarchy“ as a buzzword, or that refusing to bless their redesigned prisons is just “LARPing.“

Apparently, asking whether we need prisons at all is “unserious,” while building a more egalitarian carceral bureaucracy is treated as radical. It’s maddening that to these kids, prison abolition counts as less serious than Baryon’s patented I-Can't-Believe-It's-Not-Prison.

If you reject anarchy because you don't believe it can address the problems you're concerned about, that's your prerogative. You're perfectly entitled to want law, government, police, courts, prisons, and the institutional machinery of "law and order." No one is stopping you from going to law school, signing up to the police academy or applying to be a prison guard so you can work to reform the system.

But then be honest about what you're advocating.

To claim that prison reform is somehow "far more egalitarian than anything the world has ever seen" as one of these Breadtube-consumers told me is extraordinarily obtuse. It erases the enormous historical diversity of human societies, including countless indigenous egalitarian societies that existed without anything resembling prisons. It also assumes that the only possible alternative to the prison-industrial complex is a slightly nicer version of the prison-industrial complex.

That assumption is precisely what anarchism is supposed to challenge.

The endless demand that I provide a "solution" to crime is itself a symptom of the problem. It assumes that every instance of human violence can and should be solved through some universal institutional mechanism of policing, punishment, and confinement. I don't accept that premise.

Anarchy isn't a promise to eliminate violence or provide a bureaucratic solution to every conceivable form of harm. It is a rejection of the idea that the answer to every social problem is to create an institution with the authority to coerce everyone else.

I'm not a politician begging you for your vote. I don't need to promise you that I have the solution to every social ill. I don’t need to produce a universal criminal-justice program for every community on earth. Unlike state socialists, I'm not a prescriptivist, and I would never presume to write rules for people in another community to impose on their own community members. I think the idea that people who don't know you should nevertheless possess the authority to write constitutions that invent laws to govern you is fundamentally hostile to the freedom anarchists claim to value.

I don't think an "anarchist society" is something achievable in this era, especially when so many of these kids remain deeply invested in the idea of ruling over one another. So when they demand that I explain exactly how some hypothetical anarchist society will respond to every conceivable form of violence, I genuinely don't understand what they get from calling themselves anarchists.

At a certain point, these questions stop being sociopolitical analysis and become exercises in writing science fiction:

1. What will the anarchist federation do about serial killers?

2. What will the anarchist commune do about organized violence?

3. What will an anarchist society do about someone who wants to murder people for pleasure?

4. What institutions will exist to investigate them, detain them, judge them, and decide how long they should be confined?

I don't fucking care.

We're talking about an imaginary society that doesn't exist and won’t exist in my remaining years on this planet, and I'm not interested in pretending I can produce a universal blueprint for how every hypothetical imaginary community in the far-flung future should respond to every conceivable form of violence. That has nothing to do with any anarchy I desire.

Still, I feel compelled to explain what anarchist justice looks like, because if I don’t, they’ll insist I have no “solution” and keep pushing prison as the only cure for all their ailments. Well, they'll continue to do that anyway... but at least I can say I tried.

People commit brutal murders in capitalist society every day. We have police, courts, prisons, surveillance, laws, forensic science, enormous state budgets, and an entire institutional apparatus supposedly dedicated to preventing violence. Yet none of it allows the state to stop murder.

Anarchism isn't a prescription for curing psychopathy or preventing impulsive rage murders. There is no definitive political or social arrangement that can guarantee that nobody will ever decide to seriously harm another person. The existing system, despite its enormous coercive power and armies of law enforcement officers, cannot accomplish that either.

So stop demanding that anarchists possess some magical power that even the most totalitarian prison state demonstrably lacks: the power to guarantee that no one will ever commit violence. If prisons, police, surveillance, and the full coercive apparatus of the state can't accomplish that, why pretend anarchists are uniquely obligated to provide a foolproof solution?

What anarchism can offer is a rejection of the state's monopoly on violence and an attempt to build forms of collective life in which people can defend themselves and one another without being forced to hand that capacity over to a permanent professional apparatus of police, courts, prisons, and bureaucrats.

When you remove the state's monopoly on violence, you also remove its ability to monopolize the means by which people respond to violence. That doesn't mean violence disappears; it means it is no longer centralized in a single institution claiming exclusive authority over legitimate force.

In a non-capitalist, non-statist society where people are deeply interdependent and rely on one another to survive, violence is subject to powerful social and material constraints. If committing violence means losing the trust, cooperation, protection, and relationships you depend upon for basic survival, or if you risk retaliation without police or prisons to insulate you from the people you've harmed, there are powerful incentives to refrain from violence in the first place.

A psychopath might be willing to risk arrest, trial, and imprisonment to satisfy their violent urges, but they might be far less willing to face an enraged group of people capable of immediately retaliating against them without a state to stop them. The point is not that the absence of police and prisons magically eliminates violence. It is that removing the state's monopoly on violence changes the incentives and consequences surrounding violence.

Anonymity is also far harder to maintain in a culture where everyone depends upon one another and social relationships are essential to survival. You cannot simply disappear behind the bureaucratic machinery of the state and leave the consequences of your actions to an institution of strangers. Your actions follow you through your relationships, your reputation, and your standing within the social group.

Breaking the state's monopoly on violence means dismantling the institution that claims the exclusive authority to determine who may use force and under what circumstances. Access to violence becomes equal, and this means that the state can no longer protect some people from the consequences of their actions by monopolizing the means of retaliation on their behalf. People are no longer dependent on a distant institution to defend them, punish those who harm them, or decide what forms of force are legitimate. They must instead negotiate those questions themselves, through their relationships, communities, collective practices, and their own capacity for self-defense.

And yes, without a state or a system of law, no one has some magical authority to prevent you from declaring war on your neighbors. Your neighbors still have their own capacity for self-defense, however, and you would have to contend with their weapons, their relationships, your reputation, and the social and material consequences of your actions.

None of this guarantees that violence will disappear. It rejects the premise that preventing violence requires concentrating the power to use violence in the hands of a governing institution. How groups respond to violence will depend on the people involved, their relationships, circumstances, resources, and forms of social organization. Anarchists don't need to turn that complexity into a coercive universal penal code.

That is also why the constant demand that we provide a plan to "replace" prisons misses the point.

If you insist that I identify an alternative to prison, only to reject anything that doesn't amount to "same prison, but with more activities and administered democratically," then you've rigged the question from the outset. You're not actually asking what a world beyond prisons might look like; you're demanding that I justify the institution you've already decided is necessary.

The question isn't whether we can devise a more humane, egalitarian, or democratic prison.

The question is whether we should be organizing our response to violence around prisons at all.

And perhaps the most disgusting part of this whole discourse is the way rape gets deployed as a rhetorical battering ram for perpetuating carceral power.

The argument is always some variation of: "What are you going to do about rapists if you close the prisons?" As though invoking the most horrifying possible form of violence somehow obligates anarchists to throw their weight behind prisons to avoid inciting moral outrage.

You can't build an argument for prisons by presenting the most terrifying possible scenario while demanding I guarantee rape will never happen without prison. The people making this argument already live in a society where people are raped every day. The existing prison state has not abolished rape, yet these people insist abolitionists guarantee the elimination of rape.

An anarchist response to sexual violence begins somewhere else: prevention, consent, community care, survivor support, material conditions, and ways of responding to serious harm that don't reproduce the institutions of domination we're supposedly trying to abolish.

That means asking what makes abuse possible, what enables perpetrators, what leaves people vulnerable, how communities can intervene before harm occurs, and how survivors can be supported afterward.

You don't build anarchy by trying to shame people out of it with tiresome bait like, "I don't want people to get raped."

Neither do I.

Nobody needs to be convinced that rape is horrific. It being horrific doesn’t mean prison, however democratic you claim you’ll make it, is any kind of solution.

An anarchist conception of justice cannot simply parrot the state's answer of "just lock them up." It recognizes that violence and abuse don't emerge in a vacuum, produced solely by individual "bad people." The violence is also shaped by material conditions and relations of power. An anarchist approach therefore has to be concerned not only with what happens after someone has been harmed, but with transforming the conditions that make that harm possible in the first place.

That doesn't mean denying the reality or severity of individual acts of violence. It means refusing to pretend that institutional incarceration, and bureaucratically administered deprival of freedom are synonymous with justice.

Anarchy should seek to repair what has been broken while reducing the likelihood that the same harms can happen again. That means thinking in abolitionist terms: accountability without cages, support for survivors without turning their suffering into a spectacle, and forms of collective care and intervention that reduce the opportunities for abuse rather than outsourcing our safety to a council sentencing machine.

And if your hypothetical anarchist society only "works" so long as someone who commits rape can be sentenced to years of confinement by an institution with the power to deprive them of their freedom, then you haven't demonstrated that anarchy requires prisons. You've simply smuggled the prison back into the hypothetical and declared the thought experiment solved.

When you construct scenarios in which society can only remain safe if a rapist is locked away, you're not solving the problem of rape. You're using the existence of rape to justify reproducing the very prison culture and coercive social order in which rape remains endemic despite its prisons, police, courts, and vast apparatus of state control.

And what exactly is supposed to be "rehabilitated" in this scenario? A rapist does not need to be educated about the fact that rape is wrong. They already know it. The problem isn't a failure to understand right from wrong; it's the conscious decision to violate another person's autonomy. Years of confinement with a forced educational program followed by release doesn’t solve rape.

If your response to every question about serious harm is ultimately "we need a council with the authority to imprison people," you're not describing anarchy. You're describing government with added doublespeak.

Turn off the YouTube grifters selling you a repackaged prison planet and read some actual anarchist theory.

Because some of the arguments now being made in defense of prisons are genuinely bizarre: prison is anarchist if it's democratic; prison is the same thing as self-defense; prison is necessary to defeat fascism; famous anarchists supposedly endorsed prison; restraining or killing someone during an immediate violent attack is somehow equivalent to constructing a permanent institutional prison system because "force = prison." These are all arguments lobbed at me when I dared criticize Baryon’s prisons. Why are so many new anarchists suddenly so invested in defending prison?

At some point it starts to feel like a Twilight Zone episode in which all the anarchists have been replaced by the most smug and enthusiastic liberals imaginable. What I find most debilitating isn't even that these people disagree with me about prisons. It's the profound lack of imagination.

Anarchism should, at least in principle, be an invitation to think beyond the institutions and social relations we've been taught to regard as inevitable. It should encourage us to ask what becomes possible when we stop organizing society around hierarchy, domination, coercion, punishment, policing, confinement, and centralized power.

Instead, so much of the conversation circles right back to the same institutions: prisons, punishment, coercion, surveillance, confinement. Only now they imagine themselves in charge of them. And since they're devout democrats, they'll fix everything.

I don't want to devote my time and imagination to designing a more effective prison. I want to see the conditions that make prisons appear necessary transformed. I want to think about how people might resolve conflicts without reproducing systems of domination, how anarchists might respond to serious harm without simply recreating carceral institutions, and what forms of collective life might become possible when we stop treating punishment and control as the default answers to every social problem.

I'm not interested in designing the perfect imaginary prison in my mind.

I'm interested in imagining a world where we don't need one.

If we're going to spend our limited time on this planet imagining another, better world, why make that imagination so small? Why not imagine a world where every prison is torn down and the very idea of them becomes absurd?

Comments

anonymous (not verified) Mon, 08/10/2026 - 09:05

I'm not really sure how a rehabilitative centre equates to a prison, The mere act of confining someone who is a danger to others is not a prison by itself.

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It's not a prison because it's not punishment for a crime its for self-defence and the person would be released if rehabilitated. Do you think any form of restricting people is a prison? Restricting a person that does harm to others and will do harm to others when let go is absolutely self-defence. The point is not punishing people with some arbitrary sentences or laws the point is that we need to rehabilitate people who would otherwise do harm to others

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People are still doing to do bad things, and communities are going to want to be safe from them. Are you oppressing prisoners when you restrict their movement? Yes. Are they oppressing their community more when they act violently or selfishly? Yes. Can something like a prison be operated much more positively if community-run and not for profit? Absolutely.

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Malatesta supported rehabiliation and self-defense, that is exactly what anark is saying.

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Anark is explicitly stating that what you're calling prisons would only be used as a last resort against people who are an active threat against the rest of the community. Which sounds imminently reasonable unless you have a solution that doesn't involve separation from the rest of society for people like psychopaths or violent reactionaries.

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It is funny that you criticise a proposal that is by far more egalitarian than anything the world has ever seen thus far, you can't offer anything "better" and then criticise me for "lacking imagination". I don't think this is as good as it can ever, or should ever be, but I've also not heard anything better. And while maybe it's true that my imagination is limited in this regard, it's the onus on the one supplying the criticism, to then supply a superior solution.

You're using the term anarchy as a buzzword without any substance, concrete policy or practice proposals. and furthermore, there is no one solution within anarchist theory because the point of anarchist praxis is to be flexible and adaptable to circumstances at play. Thus many anarchists have to make room for a scenario in which there is a person or people who are an imminent active threat beyond the point of de-escalation or conflict resolution. And one solution in that scenario is self-defense i.e. putting down the active threat. you'll not find a serious anarchist who will reject that solution as potentially necessary. so this makes me question if you're just LARPing.

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I think most anarchists would have no issue fighting fascists to the death, killing fascists to protect their communities if it came to that... but locking an unrepentant serial rapist up is too much?

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If we don't have prisons, where else are we going to put Donald Trump and his family?

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Guys, we can't detain fascists, that's authoritarian! Let's take their life instead, that's based and libertarian! During a revolution, what do you do with a fascist soldier you catch or who surrenders? So, killing is anarchist but restricting movement is not anarchist?

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Some forms of anarchism support prisons. I personally believe that the possibility of prisons with a focus on rehabilitation should be considered, people make mistakes, sometimes deliberately, they need to be helped off that path while not endangering others in the community. Some people, mainly the severely mentally ill, cannot be helped and need to be placed in an environment where they are treated humanely while preventing them from presenting a danger to others. Prisons should be rehabilitative not punitive or worse for profit. Anarchism is a very broad spectrum, trying to get a universal belief is borderline impossible

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According to the Oxford Dictionary: [prison is] "a building where people are kept as a punishment for a crime they have committed, or while they are waiting for trial" Not sure how rehabilitation can be equated to punishment

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Restorative justice uses force at certain phases. It just doesn't pretend that force can act to exact ideal behaviors, thought and emotions. And in a RJ system, you still have to lock some people up for life, if they present a continuing threat. But locking them up doesn't mean the torture of a typical American prison.

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he's still an anarchist, believing in something does not mean that you have to take everything as gospel, even if it goes against the philosophy itself, humans don't work that way, sometimes deeply held beliefs have contradictions. genuinely the system of prison he proposes would be vastly better than any prison system that's ever existed. it is also something I don't believe the theory has a proper answer to, like sometimes people just rape or murder and I don't think any human philosophy has an answer with what to do with those people

anonymous (not verified) Tue, 08/11/2026 - 13:46

In reply to by anonymous (not verified)

Realitiy is:
The part of the community that you want to imprison is by that fact put into a situation where every violent act against that situation is self defense.
The part of the community is attacked by this part of the community, that imprisons them.
Now it can be, that the imprisoned part of the community was aggressor in the first place.
But: Now they are submitted to imprisonment, so: subdued.
Anarchy is not the creation of submission.
Submitting someone isn't self defense.
The oppressed is always in self defense, not the oppressor.
Anyway, even if it would be different, anarchy would be permanent attack on domination — i.e. anyone running a prison.
And most important: In prison, rape, the supposed crime to be stopped, is not only perpetrated by wardens and prisoners against prisoners very often. Because: the screw is in a situation of power that allows him many abuse.
How would that be different in your prison system?
And even if, even if you would imaginarly solve the contradiction, and have a domination without abuse: it still would be shit.
And power corrupts, said someone...

anonymous (not verified) Tue, 08/11/2026 - 03:53

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People commit brutal murders in capitalist society every day. We have police, courts, prisons, surveillance, laws, forensic science, enormous state budgets, and an entire institutional apparatus supposedly dedicated to preventing violence. Yet none of it allows the state to stop murder.

Anarchism isn't a prescription for curing psychopathy or preventing impulsive rage murders. There is no definitive political or social arrangement that can guarantee that nobody will ever decide to seriously harm another person. The existing system, despite its enormous coercive power and armies of law enforcement officers, cannot accomplish that either.
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This is pretty much the key highlight, we're trying to develop a better way of living not a perfect one. Don't limit your imagination to bizarre versions of the current system that don't work anyway.

anonymous (not verified) Wed, 08/12/2026 - 14:55

In reply to by anonymous (not verified)

Not all things in the current system should be thrown out just because we want change. We have to be practical about it and keep the things there's no replacement for like the security apparatus. How else will we keep fascists from sabotaging the new society? I also think borders are probably necessary after seeing how Russia weaponizes immigrants by flooding Europe with them.

anonymous (not verified) Thu, 08/13/2026 - 09:00

In reply to by anonymous (not verified)

I believe in direct democracy, the power of unions, municipalism, mutual aid, organizing against capitalism in my community and I donate a portion of my wages ($50) to the DSA every single month.

Let me guess, you think anarchism is when you just sit on your fat ass telling everyone you're a level 10 anarchist while doing nothing IRL.

anonymous (not verified) Sat, 08/15/2026 - 08:26

In reply to by SPEC OPS: THE LINE (not verified)

The DSA has done more for the working class than a million of you individualist layabouts have ever achieved in your sorry lives.

Field of Nothing (not verified) Fri, 08/14/2026 - 18:52

In reply to by anonymous (not verified)

lol, yikes... So yea, I:d take that last option over those above any day if these were the only two options.

At least doing nothing (which is actually hard to do!) isn't built on collectivist delusions that hide a will to exert power upon others. If only Do-Nothingists were such big egoists!

anonymous (not verified) Sat, 08/15/2026 - 08:24

In reply to by SPEC OPS: THE LINE (not verified)

And what's wrong with AOC being president? It would improve the material conditions for the entire working class if someone on our team got elected. Or would you rather another round on the MAGA-go-round?

GEF (not verified) Sat, 08/15/2026 - 12:11

In reply to by anonymous (not verified)

Dood... many of our Individualist DoNothingist Forces are levels below the Holy Working Class, and also getting its massive stockpiles of shit served upon them on a daily basis. So yea, the horror of those in the White House doesn't take away the brutal classism, conformity and "factionism" happening all the way down.

And I thought Snowpiercer wa a pretty good -even tho wonky- primer on how our late-stage collectivist-capitalist societies function... perhaps you could watch, if Camatte is too hard fot you to read and especially digest?

anonymous (not verified) Tue, 08/11/2026 - 06:14

A post-capitalist society will still need to incarcerate individuals like sexual predators and murderers and those who prey on others. The facilities can be humane on the model of the Scandinavian one shown in a Michael Moore doc; I forget which one. A shot in the doc showed a bunch of killers in a kitchen with large sharp knives on the wall behind them. It's certainly less "authoritarian" to keep someone away from the larger society than it is to take their life.

On top of which, it won't be practical to kill all of the key malignant malefactors of today's capitalist America after this social order has been destroyed. While "terror is the midwife of the new society" a little bit of it goes an awfully long way. The most profound liberatory social transformation since the rise of class society will involve a constant struggle to persuade and in the face of too much bloodshed people would quickly become estranged from the processes of a revolutionary social struggle. Most of the current reigning strata of scumbags will have to be housed in prisons -- under humane conditions.

anonymous (not verified) Thu, 08/13/2026 - 06:15

In reply to by anonymous (not verified)

it isn't purism that has anarchists rejecting prisons. it's an understanding of what prisons come out of and lead to. what it means for people not only to be in prisons, but also to monitor them, staff them, build them, etc. 

you seem to be so confused by words that you think that naming a prison something softer or at least with more syllables, will make the material, social, and psychological function of it be different. 

apparently someone didn't read 1984 in high school or something. george orwell has some words for you.

and pragmatism is always the excuse for reform. so be a reformist, enjoy yourself. just stop calling yourself an anarchist.

anonymous (not verified) Thu, 08/13/2026 - 07:47

In reply to by anonymous (not verified)

you tell yourself what you need to to make yourself feel better. 

as if reddit, or any corporate information-gathering site, will ever be the place where anarchists go to speak to each other. facepalm

anonymous (not verified) Sat, 08/15/2026 - 08:38

In reply to by anonymous (not verified)

Ok fair, so what would you say to anarchistnews doing an interview with Anark so he can explain his theories in his own words? Does anyone know how I can set that up?

anonymous (not verified) Tue, 08/11/2026 - 10:38

In reply to by anonymous (not verified)

Amazing that you're literally calling for Nordic model social democracy and not even mincing words. Why do you think you're an anarchist?

anonymous (not verified) Tue, 08/11/2026 - 10:56

In reply to by anonymous (not verified)

You can advocate for whatever kind of society post-capitalism you'd like. But what you're describing isn't anarchy and anarchists will fight against this system you'd see built until every is free.

SPEC OPS: THE LINE (not verified) Tue, 08/11/2026 - 15:28

In reply to by anonymous (not verified)

The CNT-FAI cabinet were lobbied from below to increase the repression of their labour camps/prisons. R u sure about thattt

anonymous (not verified) Wed, 08/12/2026 - 13:55

In reply to by SPEC OPS: THE LINE (not verified)

This is a great point. The CNT-FAI was an actually existing anarchist society and they had prisons and police. These lifestylists don't know anything about anarchist history.

anonymous (not verified) Wed, 08/12/2026 - 14:41

In reply to by anonymous (not verified)

the CNT-FAI joined the state, at which point they were not practicing anarchists any more, regardless of what their desires were. 

go back to your bookchin, and leave us anarchists alone. "these lifestylists" XD

anonymous (not verified) Wed, 08/12/2026 - 14:57

In reply to by anonymous (not verified)

They had prisons and police before they joined the state and anyway when they joined the state they still kept their autonomy, it was the best way to protect the revolution from Franco's forces.

anonymous (not verified) Wed, 08/12/2026 - 15:03

In reply to by anonymous (not verified)

I saw that doc too and it does prove that rehabilitation works. We just need to reform prisons so they aren't punitive and offer job training at the facilities so the convicts will become productive members of society. It's sad so many people here refuse to listen to reason.

anonymous (not verified) Wed, 08/12/2026 - 06:32

just found out about this youtuber.... who the fuck are these people?!? why aren't we targeting them??

anonymous (not verified) Wed, 08/12/2026 - 13:33

In reply to by anonymous (not verified)

He wrote a book called "A Modern Anarchism" that just transcribes his shitty authoritarian videos. Anarchy is about to suffer death by 1000 Bookchins.

anonymous (not verified) Wed, 08/12/2026 - 13:51

In reply to by anonymous (not verified)

That sounds like a threat. What do you mean by targeting them? You think comrades should be attacked physically because you disagree with how they want to deal with criminals? You're a psycho.

anonymous (not verified) Wed, 08/12/2026 - 08:29

10:56

You can't fight for anything. I've been in, then aware from a distance in relation to your subculture since the spring of 1981. It's exactly like other similar subcultures generated by consumer society in the United States since the 1970s. If it doesn't generate anything relevant to the larger world outside then it doesn't matter how fiery your online posturing is.

There will still be prisons after an anti-capitalist social revolution. I'm not jumping for joy about this but perfection only exists among the angels, and not in a large complex society of contradictory mortal humans. Like Kropotkin said, anarchy means no rulers. It doesn't mean no rules.

anonymous (not verified) Wed, 08/12/2026 - 08:39

In reply to by anonymous (not verified)

8:29
anti-capitalism is not the full extent of what anarchists are fighting for. 

more to the point, regardless of how realistic anarchist goals are, it's not hard to say that prisons--no matter the euphemistic rhetoric used to name them--are not anarchist. 

maybe your plan for an anarchist revolution includes some fucked up transitional stage in which prisons are still a tactic. that transitional stage is not anarchist. 

this is not fucking rocket science. 

anonymous (not verified) Wed, 08/12/2026 - 13:49

In reply to by anonymous (not verified)

Correct. We are also fighting for mutual aid, direct democracy in the workplace and horizontal organization.

Prisons aren't something our philosophy is against, Kropotkin never said he was against using prisons for self defense. As long as they are set up for rehabilitation and are run democratically then they're perfectly compatible with anarchism.

anonymous (not verified) Wed, 08/12/2026 - 14:38

In reply to by anonymous (not verified)

who cares what kropotkin said, we're not kropotkinists. 

whatever the fuck your philosophy is, is your business, but prisons are absolutely not anarchist. you just want a friendlier, "nicer" state. anarchists are against the state. 

anarchy 101 indeed. 

https://anarchy101.org/

anonymous (not verified) Wed, 08/12/2026 - 15:01

In reply to by anonymous (not verified)

Kropotkin is like the founding father of anarchism, what kind of useless lifestylist doesn't care about Kropotkin lol

I don't want a state, I don't see why we need a state to have self defense and security. Anark also doesn't want a state, just local councils that answer to bigger councils at a national level.

anonymous (not verified) Wed, 08/12/2026 - 17:07

In reply to by anonymous (not verified)

there were lots of influences on anarchist thought. kropotkin is one, and hardly The Founding Father (and to hell with "founding fathers" anyway, especially coming from someone who is literally trying to start another state only with more bullshit jargon to cover it up). 

what do you think makes a state? is it language? or is it the monitoring and controlling of people's bodies (and the rationale is ALWAYS for "the safety of the people" -- from trump to musk to whatever asshole you listened to before you got to baryon). 

anonymous (not verified) Thu, 08/13/2026 - 09:11

In reply to by anonymous (not verified)

A state claims to be the legitimate authority that gets to enforce rules over a territory and it's backed by a monopoly on violence. Anarchists believe in self government and in breaking the monopoly on violence, which means we want to give the people the right to make their own rules and enforce them collectively and democratically through defense committees and popular militias that answer directly to the people who elected them and can be easily recalled. A state is a centralized authority or a pyramid hierarchy that focuses power at the top while an anarchist society is decentralized authority or a flat hierarchy where everyone in the community has a say in running things through direct democracy. As part of our belief in self defense, we aim to create rehabilitation communities where we may send violators of the collectively agreed rules if the committee decides it.

anonymous (not verified) Thu, 08/13/2026 - 09:23

In reply to by anonymous (not verified)

so your state is democratically chosen, and called a council. still a state. 

voting for your leaders, even when the voting actually works, is still you choosing leaders, still other people acting for you, not you acting for yourself. and no matter how well that might work to start (lol), power corrupts. 

really not trying to write a book here. those books have been written. perhaps you will read one of them eventually. 

anonymous (not verified) Wed, 08/12/2026 - 13:46

This guy has been on a "prisons bad" tirade for a while now. I think it’s a ridiculous thing he’s going off on. As for the claim that what Anark or similar anarchists are calling prisons, I think it’s a little misguided at best. I think it’s confusing two different things.

Either way, the biggest issue with it is that it doesn’t bring up an alternative. Additionally, I feel the perspective continues to operate as if this is just a prison in a capitalist state vs a community based perspective. It’s well within our theories that communities have the right to defend themselves against oppressors using violence. This does not constitute authoritarianism (unless your Engles). If there were a person violent and unable to be rehabilitated, that is a danger to the community and thus an oppressor. The people have a right, within our theories, to do something to protect themselves.

Anark is not our leader but I think many anarchists respect his work because it is clear and informed from genuine organizing. He is an organizer in Tulsa and has done some pretty considerable work with his community. I believe his theories have been informed from his action.

If you were able to organize all of your neighborhood and build an alternative justice system without the police, what would you do if one of your neighbors was violent or abusive to another? I fear these types are unfortunately overly online and become purist, trying to fit the world within their theories as opposed to adapting their theories to fit the world. Between the guy who has organized with his community and the anonymous author of a schizo-post. I’ll listen to the latter.

anonymous (not verified) Thu, 08/13/2026 - 06:25

In reply to by anonymous (not verified)

it's too bad these youtube redditors are not appreciative enough of the original post here. they're coming face to face with an actual anarchist perspective and all they want to do is keep bootlicking anark. 

of course, maybe these posts are all just anark himself. 

anonymous (not verified) Thu, 08/13/2026 - 09:15

In reply to by anonymous (not verified)

The only perspective you're offering is a juvenile individualist one. It has nothing to do with the anarchism described by Kropotkin, Malatesta, Bookchin, Guerin and Bakunin. I like to call it edgelordism

anonymous (not verified) Thu, 08/13/2026 - 09:27

In reply to by anonymous (not verified)

aw look, you know some other names besides kropotkin. good for you. 

bookchin agreed that he was not an anarchist, makes sense you'd be confused. 

guerin wrote about anarchists but wasn't one. as for the rest, either quote relevant pieces from them for this conversation or leave them out of your mouth. 

anonymous (not verified) Wed, 08/12/2026 - 16:07

"real" anarchists ( funny, i know) dont care that much about a world after the revolution, with or without prison. We are not the ones who seclude or decide how to seclude, we actually are the ones who are secluded! and if there is any one single reason why prisons exist in the world, and will more than certainly continue to exist after these "new" anarchists (whatever)have concluded their "revolution", that reason is us!!! before the criminals or rapists or fascists (when have they gone to prison btw?), it's we who live for something else that is not allowed in this society!! and will not be allowed in the next... and our questions regarding prisons are: how do we get out? how do we not get there in the first place? are these things even possible?? how?? and if you are thinking about prisons in a position that is not that of the inmate, it is not that you are a progressive type of an anarchist, it's just that you're a fucking liberal!!! wake up

anonymous (not verified) Thu, 08/13/2026 - 07:22

16:07
What you put forward is USA-type puerile narcissism, not a head-on confrontation with the larger very difficult problems that will be encountered in a mass revolutionary upheaval.

anonymous (not verified) Fri, 08/14/2026 - 06:57

In reply to by anonymous (not verified)

I don't know what you mean by narcissism, but coming to terms with what our force is (how many of us are there, what are we capable of) looks quite realistic to me.
In a mass revolutionary upheaval, anarchists would be summarily slaughtered either in the process, as a result of the process, or both. A head-on confrontation of one against 100 or 1000 will not result in a success for the one.
And in my life i've never been to the US anyway.

anonymous (not verified) Thu, 08/13/2026 - 07:42

7:22 your idea of what a revolution is, your model of what fundamental change will look like, has been refuted by history and by writers like fredy perlman. 

revolutions in the classically-understood sense don't do anything but change who's making the rules. 

anarchists don't want new heads of state, we want fundamentally different societies and ways of living that are opaque to most so-called revolutionaries. 

you can disagree that that would be desirable, but not that it's impossible, since people have lived in those ways before. (anarchy works by gelderloos is one book you could read.)

you might call us unrealistic or dreamers, but dreaming and being unrealistic is part of finding something that is actually better, not just re-named.

Wayne@ (not verified) Fri, 08/14/2026 - 09:45

Neither Kropotkin nor Malatesta ever advocated prisons of any kind. It is absurd to suggest that they did.

Under socialist-anarchy, there will be plenty for all, satisfying work for all, equality in distribution of goods and services (no classes), no oppression based on race, gender, sexual orientation, sexual identity, etc. Under such conditions, there will be a great decrease in "crime" (anti-social aggression), even if not totally ended. What remains would be dealt with as individual cases in the community. Under decentralized federalism, local communities would try out differing methods of dealing with the few anti-social actors. (See William Morris' News from Nowhere.)

Opponents of anarchism focus on this issue. "How would you deal with criminals?" But this is not really the central question for anarchists. For us, the main issues involve anti-capitalism, anti-statism, and decentralization. While I do not completely agree with him, I think that Bookchin has contributed to these issues.

However, I do not think that it is an effective argument to tell people who support prisons of some sort (but who agree with anarchists on every other issue) that they are not "anarchists." It may be true, but does not disprove their arguments.

anonymous (not verified) Fri, 08/14/2026 - 11:27

In reply to by Wayne@ (not verified)

wow, i mostly agree with you here. however to your last point, sometimes, some parts of responses are not to be convincing, but to express emotion. 

anonymous (not verified) Fri, 08/14/2026 - 15:06

In reply to by Wayne@ (not verified)

Kropotkin says "here surely will remain a limited number of persons whose anti-social passions − the result of bodily diseases − may still be a danger for the community". His solution for such people is a kind of quarantine, which he doesn't call a prison but describes as a community empowered to rehabilitate them. Call it an open compound, maybe. Presumably the community members are responsible for herding offenders into the compound. Again, this sounds like a form of well-intentioned incarceration.

Malatesta said "We need to persuade people that public security, the individual’s right to safety and freedom, must be available to all, that everyone must be on the alert, everyone must blacklist the bully and intervene in defence of the weak — themselves become judges and, in extreme cases, like the one above-mentioned, entrust the guilty party to the custody and care of the asylum, its doors kept ever open to public scrutiny."

Malatesta's public asylum and Kropotkin's open compound is the same as Baryon's rehabilitation community or what you edgelords insist on calling a prison.

SPEC OPS: THE LINE (not verified) Sat, 08/15/2026 - 01:35

In reply to by anonymous (not verified)

Did Malatesta persuade anyone or is it yet another failure for the red and black larpers? Youse would be the most brutal prison guards, I can just see it. “Not working today, COMRADE???” * signals to labour police*

anonymous (not verified) Sat, 08/15/2026 - 10:44

In reply to by anonymous (not verified)

who determines whether someone is productive or not? who determines which people have been (most) hurt? who determines what justice is and what restitution is fair and how to determine rehabilitation and all the other abstractions you're talking about here? 

oh yea, The People(tm)

aka a state

 

anonymous (not verified) Sat, 08/15/2026 - 08:45

In reply to by anonymous (not verified)

If only we weren't beholden to the words of men written in the 1800s before we had a better understanding of the inherent torture of involuntary incarceration. It's a shame that we can not learn and grow and can only ever do the exact things as Malatesta and Kropotkin, both famous anarchist blueprint makers, have told us that we must do.

Wayne@ (not verified) Sat, 08/15/2026 - 15:38

In reply to by anonymous (not verified)

*Where* did Kropotkin and Malatesta write these remarks? Name of article or book please.

I have great respect for the "classical" revolutionary anarchists, which doesn't mean that they can't be wrong on particular issues at times.

Note that Malatesta (if he said this) is referring to "extreme cases."

Lord of Edge (not verified) Sun, 08/16/2026 - 07:02

In reply to by anonymous (not verified)

Okay, these aren't prisons... but they're just self-managed autonomous prisons sanctioned by the Community of worldwide anarchists.

Malatesta also fucked up badly here, unknowlingly reaffirming an old claim of the Modern liberal states... that public security being the affair of every citizen, it must be to serve and protect every citizen or community member. Especially those exposed to abuse and violence. Therefore this new, blurry "revolutionary" body should put itself in the service of the defenseless people. Ergo, what the police claims to be doing already.

There's nothing wrong or even authoritarian with proscribing troublesome or dangerous people... but that's not even what the authors are talking about in these quotes.

How is a prison not at least claiming to be a "community empowered to rehabilitate them". The passe-partout word of "community" here tacitly hides what would be in fact an institution, an organ of this revolutionary order. An organ of social control. Both of Krapotkin and Malatester's plans look like nice PR for a yet another disastrous social project. Neither of these guys have lived through the post-WW1 era, or read Foucault.

chisel Sun, 08/16/2026 - 06:53

In reply to by anonymous (not verified)

for the curious -- he pretty much says that people only don't like what he says because they don't like him. "they hate us for our freedoms" in human form. pathetic. doesn't respond to any of the substance in people's responses.

don't feed the engagement machine.

alex (not verified) Sat, 08/15/2026 - 23:22

i think some of these commenters defending the necessity of prisons or democratic, humane internment or the security apparatus or whatever you want to call it would do well to interrogate their conception of "necessity." i take the collapse of ends and means to be a practical approach, not a mere theoretical posture or idealism. it entails that accountability for the supposed necessity of an act lies only with the people for whom it is ostensibly necessary. ideals, including hypothetical humane or democratic or anarchist iterations of existing institutions, cannot be held accountable, only people. it runs contrary to that approach to attempt to determine in advance of any particular confrontation what is or will be necessary. it encourages people both to suborn their sense of the immediate situation to what they walked into it believing it ought to be, and by the same token to evade accountability for their own actions. the allure of that approach is the intuition that we ought to know in advance how to do what we want to do in a way that is consistently and predictably just and/or effective. but that is what institutionalism is. it is the ideological justification for the existence of a state and entails a struggle over what limits ought to be recognized by the agents of the state as they carry out their duties.

separately, i also do not believe that it is necessary or wise to construe every hypothetical action we (in whatever sense of "we") might take as anarchist. to use the example of a generalized, future revolution, not everyone involved will be anarchist, and not everything the ones who are anarchists do will be anarchist. as other commenters have pointed out, even if it is true, or seems to be true, or people with other perspectives simply decide it is true, that prisons or prison-like structures are necessary to defend against reaction, it will immediately follow from the specifically anarchist perspective that those structures must not last, must be destroyed, which is correct. what that critique looks like rhetorically and practically is not a question for the future because no future exists to interrogate. it is a question for the present, wherever and whenever and however fucked that present confronts us.

anonymous (not verified) Sun, 08/16/2026 - 05:36

In reply to by alex (not verified)

this is an excellent response. much more thoughtful and meta than where i have been taking the conversation, and adds well to what zig started this with, as well. 

SPEC OPS: THE LINE (not verified) Sun, 08/16/2026 - 06:41

In reply to by anonymous (not verified)

lol yeah bigbraining it, “the allure of that approach is the intuition that we ought to know in advance how to do what we want to do in a way that is consistently and predictably just and/or effective. but that is what institutionalism is.” What? Having vague plans is institutionalism? This is where the anarkiddies thing comes from, a child like avoidance of any sort of responsibility or risk. For all their faults, the normies know a pussy when they see one.

anonymous (not verified) Sun, 08/16/2026 - 06:50

In reply to by SPEC OPS: THE LINE (not verified)

pussies can read big words, i guess.

in words of one syllable just for you, gamed-namer--anticipating a problem and a single solution to that anticipated problem is setting ourselves up to not see outside the box we've put ourselves in. 

alex (not verified) Sun, 08/16/2026 - 08:47

In reply to by anonymous (not verified)

yeah. funny to call me a pussy too when im saying "we have to proceed without assurances" in response to the idea that we should instead invent a prison that's so wholesome and comfy that we don't have to feel bad about throwing ranchers in a labor camp or be scared of psycho killers or whatever they think they're saying

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