From CrimethInc.
The Palestine Solidarity Camp at UNAM in Mexico City: An Interview
On May 2, students from a number of schools and student organizations across Mexico City launched a Palestine solidarity encampment in the heart of the National Autonomous University of Mexico (UNAM), within view of the Okupa Che, a 24-year-running anarchist squat that once served as the UNAM’s largest auditorium. They established the encampment as an expression of solidarity with the wave of university encampments taking place in the United States against the Israeli state’s genocide in Gaza. By the end of the encampment’s first day, it already involved fifty tents, a free kitchen, and the visual redecoration of the space around it with messages of solidarity with Palestine.
We conducted this interview in person with a well-connected participant.

Tents in the Palestine solidarity encampment in the center of the National Autonomous University of Mexico. The banners read “Stop the genocidal imperialism in Gaza—long live the struggle of the Palestinian people—break off relations with Israel!”

Outside the Okupa Che, a longstanding anarchist squatted social center in the heart of the National Autonomous University of Mexico.
Q: Let’s start with the basics. How long has the encampment been here?
A: It started today, at noon.
Q: Oh shit, today?
A: Today. The original decision that we took in assembly was to camp out until Sunday, but now my understanding is we’re going through until at least next week. We’re going to have another assembly to take stock of how it’s going and decide whether to extend the encampment longer or continue along another course of action.
I feel like there were more people in the assembly than came to the encampment, but lots of people passed by today and found out about it, and went home to gather supplies, so I expect more people will come to spend the weekend here.

Tents in the Palestine solidarity encampment in the center of the National Autonomous University of Mexico.

Tents in the Palestine solidarity encampment at UNAM.
Q: How did it start?
A: Well, I can tell you how I found out about it: I saw a flier posted by various collectives—I think Juventud Anticapitalista (anti-capitalist youth) made it—calling for an inter-university assembly about how to take action in solidarity with all the Palestine solidarity camps happening in the United States. The idea was for the camp here to be a center of organizing that other actions can emerge from, as well as a space to talk about what’s happening in Palestine. The assembly involved students from different high schools and universities, even schools on the outskirts of the city, and also art collectives, political collectives, a little of everything.
The goal is to pressure the university to break its ties with pro-Israel entities, because UNAM has a certain degree of political weight on the national level. Also, the presidential election is in June, so its electoral campaign season right now, and we thought we could extend our demand to the national level: that the government should break its ties with Israel too. However, it’s not like there’s a single political line here, there are many, and at some point, we may have disagreements about what actions to take to achieve our goals.

A banner at the Palestine solidarity encampment at UNAM. The text reads “Until what is essential becomes visible,” a reference to Antoine de Saint-Exupéry’s The Little Prince, and likely to graffiti that appeared during the uprising in Chile in 2019 depicting the Little Prince with the inscription “What is essential is invisible to the state.”
Q: So the camp isn’t only for UNAM students?
A: Right, no one’s checking your student ID here. It’s mostly students, but we intentionally wanted it open to the public in general because we think that’s part of this being a public university. Personally, I’m in the philosophy department and majoring in Latin American studies, but I’m not here just as an individual. I’m participating with my direct action-based activist film collective.
Q: Can you speak to the specific location of the encampment and the meaning and history of this location?
A: To the north, we have the central library of the UNAM (National Autonomous University of Mexico) system. It’s the symbol of the school: people take their graduation photos here because of the enormous Juan O’Gorman mural on the building.
On the other end of the encampment is the main administrative building of the university, including the chancellor’s offices, which also features historic and widely recognized murals. By planting our encampment between two of the most emblematic buildings of UNAM, we’re projecting our message right from the symbolic heart of the university.

Tents in the Palestine solidarity encampment at UNAM.

The Palestine solidarity encampment at UNAM.
Q: And the Okupa Che is, like, right there [gestures]. Does the fact that there’s a 24-year-running anarchist squatted auditorium next door make the encampment more viable?
A: Since the student movement in 1968, which has a whole history and context of its own, the law has given universities autonomy from police—they’re not allowed to enter. Even so, it’s peculiar to have a squat in the middle of a university, and Okupa Che is an unusually protected space for the amount of activity that comes out of it. On the other hand, Okupa Che doesn’t define itself as an exclusively student space, and it rejects certain forms of what can be understood as “student activism.” However, even if what we’re doing doesn’t emerge directly from working with the Okupa Che, there’s that sense that they have our back because we’re also occupying space autonomously.

Outside the Okupa Che, a longstanding anarchist squatted social center in the center of the National Autonomous University of Mexico.
The unpermitted street market outside of the squat is another extension of those values and practices, even if it’s not directly tied to the Okupa Che. During the pandemic, students needed a way to cover their costs without abandoning their studies, and the Tianguis street market was born. There were attempts to establish a street market before the pandemic, but it wasn’t until COVID-19 that there were organized, mass calls to have people set up and sell their goods. There were conflicts over whether it should just be for students, but personally, I think it’s better for it to be open to the whole public. This is a “public” institution, after all.
So having these two unpermitted, collective uses of university territory next to us offers a kind of informal network of protection, because we know that if something happens to the encampment, there are people who will fight for us—not even because they are involved in our movement, necessarily, but because what we have in common is the collective occupation of public space.

Artwork calling for solidarity with Jorge “Yorch” Esquivel, an anarchist prisoner targeted for his involvement in the Okupa Che squat.
Q: From what I can tell, what’s happening in the United States is an explosion of ad hoc student organizing. In contrast, the student movement here seems to have a more consistent tradition of struggle. As someone involved in student activism in Mexico, are there any lessons for the students taking action now?
A: If there’s one important difference I would highlight, it is the fact that what is happening in the United States is capturing the attention of the public. The student rebels there should take advantage of that. One of the privileges of the United States is that when something noteworthy happens there, it’s news for the whole world. In that sense, while I know there is persecution happening against the encampments, there is also a kind of unique protection in the United States, because the whole world is watching.
There’s a tension there: the importance of not losing that attention, but also of connecting it to international networks. That’s the kind of support that can make a meaningful difference for international movements and struggles, because imperialism and racism are not just limited to Palestine. Now is the time, so push—push with everything you’ve got.

The Palestine solidarity encampment at UNAM.

Graffiti at the Palestine solidarity encampment at UNAM.

Graffiti at the Palestine solidarity encampment at UNAM.

The Palestine solidarity encampment at UNAM.
Comments
An anarchist squat named for
anon (not verified) Sun, 05/05/2024 - 16:16
An anarchist squat named for Che Guevara?
And I guess right now all anarchists are also nationalists, judging from the 'Free Palestine' (with each purchase?) and nationalist flags photos.
¡Che boludo!
Boludo (not verified) Sun, 05/05/2024 - 17:01
In reply to An anarchist squat named for by anon (not verified)
No, it's named after famous Argentinian anarchist 'Che Boludo'.
And I was hoping for Che
anon (not verified) Sun, 05/05/2024 - 17:10
And I was hoping for Che Stadium...
Derp-thinc: "Hey! a bunch of
anon (not verified) Mon, 05/06/2024 - 06:40
Derp-thinc: "Hey! a bunch of hippies are camping in Mexico!"
Israel:
Ok so if you pleeease just
TentReviews2024 (not verified) Mon, 05/06/2024 - 07:28
Ok so if you pleeease just allow me to find it awkward that a so-called anarchist occupation would be displaying an overt nationalist (and fundamentally Islamist) flag...
Having been to UNAM it is a very US colllege-like bubble within a crazy big cities with a plethora of other unrelated violence & corruption issues (there's already been encampments elsewhere in the city in protest against the extreme deadly violence used in other provinces on women and eco-activists... something that oddly the local ancom crowd appear to be quiet about, or is the cause of Palestine above this?). So, okay, maybe not that surprising in the way that they're reproducing the same New Left tunnel vision than in the colleges up north.
I'd like "anarchists" (i.e. those other ones... lol) to be growing up beyond taking sides within set up nationalist binaries and all their intense polarization; Misrael vs Paleswhine being of course the most intense of the last decades. Can we be anti-war without being pro-Viet Cong or full Maoist during the Vietnam war? Can we be protesting the Israeli state without siding with a bunch of ethno-national Islamic fascists that are like fucking bombing the humanitarian corridors of "their" own people?
TOTW: What are the limits of the anti-oppression ID pols narrative? Does it justify ANY sort of political or ethnic violence. or supporting people that are the enemy to any anarchy, just because "ISRAAAEEEEEL"?
so i think that we've heard
anon (not verified) Mon, 05/06/2024 - 07:42
In reply to Ok so if you pleeease just by TentReviews2024 (not verified)
so i think that we've heard enough about how fucked up it is to use the symbols of nationalism to participate in (and reinforce) a non-anarchist nationalist-based binary struggle between two statist forces (hamas and israel here, but they're hardly the only ones).
and i agree, for what that's worth.
can the people who are complaining so loudly offer up some suggestions about how anarchists can participate in these kinds of events (not constructed or framed by us, mostly) and demonstrate support (for the people of palestine, and the israelis who are against the continuing genocide of those people) without perpetuating the statist short cuts implied by (for example) palestinian flags?
surely that would be a more interesting direction to go in than repeating the above talking points ad nauseum...
Happening in Prague in a
anon (not verified) Mon, 05/06/2024 - 08:14
In reply to so i think that we've heard by anon (not verified)
Happening in Prague in a couple weeks as part of the ant-war action week:
https://actionweek.noblogs.org/post/2024/04/24/protest-in-front-of-the-…
As a part of the May Action Week, we are calling for a protest on Monday May 20th, 2024 in front of the headquarters of STV GROUP a.s. in Prague. STV Group materially supports the Israeli army that is massacring the people of Gaza. It is part of a war machine that is a profitable business and at the same time it brings destruction, death, misery, famine…
We will not remain silent when we know that thousands of miles away people like us are being murdered. We call for solidarity with them and will work to ensure that the massacres cannot continue. At the same time, we clearly declare our refusal to support nationalist tendencies that do not benefit the impoverished people of Gaza, but above all those who rule and exploit them. Our solidarity is directed towards our class brothers and sisters in Gaza who are under attacks by the Israeli army and, at the same time, under daily attacks by Palestinian capitalists, repressive forces, bureaucrats and religious fundamentalists.
The exploited and oppressed in Gaza have no common interest with those who exploit them at home, just as it is not in the interest of the exploited and oppressed in Israel that the bombing of Gaza continues. We are not calling for “national unity” or “national liberation struggle”, but rather for the dismantling of national unity, which always represents a false “unity” between the subjugated social class and the capitalist class that subjugates it.
The cracks in the nationalist construction help the exploited, regardless of national borders, to recognize their common interests and the need to unite against their exploiters in Gaza, Israel and all over the world. Let us together denounce the “external” aggression of the Israeli State, but also the “local” aggression that takes place under the Palestinian flag. Let’s take a stand against nationalism – Israeli, Palestinian or otherwise. Let’s disrupt the business of the STV Group, which is adding fuel to the heat of the ongoing conflict in Gaza, but also in other parts of the world.
WHEN: Monday, May 20th, 2024 at 4:30 p.m.
WHERE: Hvězdova 1716/2b, Prague 4, Nusle (= near Pakrác metro station)
Ok thanks
anon (not verified) Mon, 05/06/2024 - 11:40
In reply to Happening in Prague in a by anon (not verified)
This call sounds way better than our usual tired old New Left rhetoric, and substantially anarchistic.
binaries/anarchism
Moe Fridim (not verified) Mon, 05/06/2024 - 10:39
In reply to so i think that we've heard by anon (not verified)
The irrefutable fact of the matter is that it's infinitely more anarchist to fly a Palestinian flag or do anything else to support freedom for Palestine (which isn't a "cause") than to regurgitate some marxist left-communist or liberal line about supposed binary "nationalist" or "ethnic" "conflict" when dealing with a case of settler colonialism, imperialism and national liberation. If you're seething with ressentiment against anarchists like Bonanno and Michel for supporting national liberation you can always just own up to the ideological commitments you consider more pertinent and stop talking about the anarchism you don't care for. Log on to leftcomnews.org or liberalnews.org and comment away to your heart's desire. No one can stop you when you set your mind to it.
i appreciate the energy here,
anonymous (not verified) Mon, 05/06/2024 - 11:55
In reply to binaries/anarchism by Moe Fridim (not verified)
i appreciate the energy here, but definitely raises some questions.
how is freedom for palestine not a cause?
how is your language of "colonialism," "imperialism," and "national liberation" any less jargon (or marxist, for that matter) than the phrases you're hating on?
if you think that bonanno and michel have spoken for you, and nothing more needs to be said, then perhaps you could link and/or quote to where you specifically think they've successfully finished the conversation.
terms don't matter much
Moe Fridim (not verified) Mon, 05/06/2024 - 14:21
In reply to i appreciate the energy here, by anonymous (not verified)
Just because a person says one thing doesn't mean they've said all there needs to be said about that thing, and doesn't mean I agree with them on their every single point about that thing. All it means is that if you're shopping for an ideology that's pure, without any trace of national liberation, then anarchism is definitely not the one for you, because not only Bonanno and Michel supported it, also Malatesta and so and so down the line. Better sticking with the proudly ignorant leftcoms or liberals. I also don't particularly care about terminology. If you want to call national liberation "happy fun times" it won't make any difference to the content of the things themselves. It's not just the terminology others use that makes their ideas and objections marxist, it's the marxist and anti-anarchist content of their ideas that makes them so, regardless of which words are used. Palestine isn't a cause because it's a nation and a people, of which a cause can be made or not made. If a people want to continue to exist and not be destroyed you can call it what you will, it won't make any difference. Supporting the cause of freedom, existence and resistance to destruction is much more anarchist than sobbing about the fact that some anarchists support that struggle and may wave an associated flag.
"FREEDUM!" is a very elastic notion...
anon (not verified) Mon, 05/06/2024 - 18:44
In reply to terms don't matter much by Moe Fridim (not verified)
...regurgitated for more than two centuries by liberals, capitalists, conservatives, then even fascists and Bolcheviks... then Randians/Tatcherites. But nowadays it's even more interesting how freedom has become commodity. how owning and using a car like an asshole means "freedum", and oh let's not talk about the freedum of impersons like national state formations (like, you know, that recent travesty called "Palestine"). The Venn Diagram of all these notions of "freedum" lies in how the word always is championing their ideologies and agendas.
But regardless of the semantics on "freedum", that have become a pointless discourse, an ethno-national agenda has got nothing to do with anarchy or anarchism, as its goal is first and foremost to create a territory exclusive to a specific group of people. i.e. Muslim "Palestinian" Arabs. Not even Israel -an ethnically-diverse state that does recognize the rights of cultural, religious and sexual minorities, went this far.
It is not only an anti-liberal but authoritarian and retrograde notion of a nation-state, i.e. one defined by bloodlines, tribal belonging, family, etc. This, as far as it remains under the leadership of fascists like Hamas and Islamic Jihad. And Fauda don't look too promising neither with their single-focus on, surprise surprise, Palestine. It is much, much closer to the organic community of fascism... and given this movement's past of siding with Nazis that ain't very surprising.
nation arent states
M.Gouldhawke (not verified) Tue, 05/07/2024 - 07:48
In reply to "FREEDUM!" is a very elastic notion... by anon (not verified)
Nations aren't states, that's why the term nation-state exists, otherwise it would redundant. And who cares who talks about freedom? Fascists also breathe air. Should we all abstain then? What's retrograde is a racist like you rambling about what's anarchist and what's not when you haven't the faintest idea about anything, let alone anarchism. You can always just talk to yourself. It would be better for all involved.
while i basically agree with
anon (not verified) Wed, 05/08/2024 - 13:38
In reply to nation arent states by M.Gouldhawke (not verified)
while i basically agree with your differentiation re: nations, I also acknowledge that nation being a synonym for the state is common parlance, so if you want to avoid having to explain what you mean every single time, it would be useful to use a term other than nation
Gouldhawke,
anon (not verified) Wed, 05/08/2024 - 15:26
In reply to nation arent states by M.Gouldhawke (not verified)
please give me a Palestinian national liberation group that isn't about creating some kind of state (either a social democracy, a theocracy, or just a shady oligarchic theocracy, lol), coz I don't see any.
irrelevant
M.Gouldhawke (not verified) Wed, 05/08/2024 - 18:36
In reply to Gouldhawke, by anon (not verified)
I never said there was one (aside from Fauda, ostensibly, or other anarchist/anti-state communist groups we don't yet know about). National liberation isn't predicated on everyone being an anarchist, or a certain number of groups being anarchist. I can disagree with a person or organization about the necessity or benefits of the state form, but this in itself doesn't mean I think their entire people should be denied national existence and freedom. For people living under states like Israel or the USA and Canada, their main concern should be dealing with those states anyway, not some hypothetical future Palestinian state. They should deal with the state that exists where they actually live. Real internationalism demands it. I may not like it if a homeless guy in the next town over randomly punches someone, but I can't do much about it anyway, and it would be a bit silly to focus on him rather than the state, capital and cops that are producing homelessness in the first place.
Hamas are already a "state
anon (not verified) Wed, 05/08/2024 - 21:09
In reply to irrelevant by M.Gouldhawke (not verified)
Hamas are already a "state that exists", They got a chain of command, as well as a government with its own institutions. Well at least 'til the Israeli raids on Gaza.
You're claiming that -in the case of Palestine- there's a great distinction between nation and state... well, where is it? Or how does it matter? The only way any existing faction wants to liberate Palestine is by a single state led by "Palestinians". I'm not seeing any "standalone" stateless nation...
learn something why don't ya
M.Gouldhawke (not verified) Wed, 05/08/2024 - 22:23
In reply to Hamas are already a "state by anon (not verified)
Chain of command, even government, alone, is not the State or a state. Maybe read Kropotkin. An organization can be shitty in its own right, it doesn't need to be a state to be shitty. What's the mysterious distinction between state and nation with Palestine? Well for one thing, Sir Genius Anon, Gaza is not all of Palestine, there's also the West Bank, sub-governed by the Palestinian Authority, and the state that occupies all of Palestine is Israel. No one said there's a standalone nation there not occupied by a state. If the proles of Canada live under a state, does that mean they don't exist as proles and also shouldn't liberate themselves? There's no organization of workers fighting to end the State in Canada either. It's almost like anarchism is not manna from heaven. You'd almost think it's something that has to be built. Perchance educate yourself just a bit before you feel the need to ask such miraculously stupid questions.
Yea... so I've read Agamben
GEF (not verified) Thu, 05/09/2024 - 07:14
In reply to learn something why don't ya by M.Gouldhawke (not verified)
Yea... so I've read Agamben who was a much sharper theorist than that ancom librarian who thought it was a great idea to join the inter-imperialist war effort... On the political being, more precisely, that includes the formation of national identity. No one truly exists as "prole" or a "Palestinian"; but of course they are existent. These are just socio-economic and political identities only applying on a demographic level. They mean very little to the person, beyond the more direct social pressure of the tribe and family. Which is why the traditional nation -the ethnic nation- is made of "corporeal" social institutions that may not need states, but yet can be just as harmful to people (genocides in some African regions can testify).
So this Palestinian nation used to exist in the region now known as Israel. Up until it was integrated within Muslim/Arabic imperialism of the Baghdad caliphates. Now it is but a mere political vehicle dating back to the '60s at most... a byproduct of the nationalist decolonization movement of the times.
Blood lines? Genetics? Get out... They only make nations in the minds of Nazis and Neonazis.
What defines the anarchist is precisely their ability to move beyond those reductive designations, i.e. to move beyond class, nationality, race, religious creed and of course GENDER, so they become an unmanageable whatever they feel like being/doing. In charge of our selves. That's the part you still didn't get with anarchy; its full liberatory potential, outta the collectivist fossils.
You see... The "prole" who sees no other course than being a "prole" is a socio-economic prisoner... just like the nationalist is a prisoner of a national silo (and the related Anarchists are superior in that they seek to go beyond, to become over-men, to overcome all that hinders their personal experience of life.
Maybe someday you can join "us"... when you get it, you poor nationalist and socialist.
Oh wait. What if...
so you're clearly an
lumpy (not verified) Thu, 05/09/2024 - 13:06
In reply to Yea... so I've read Agamben by GEF (not verified)
so you're clearly an insufferable, pompous ass but it's an interesting topic so i'll engage anyway!
what you're talking about is a critique of identity, which is good and anarchist, true BUT it's only useful for people to understand how these things aren't "real" at the personal level. don't confuse structural arguments for individuals and behaviour
for all you know, plenty of "palestinians" may or may not have a critique of identity as well but you know when the exact WRONG TIME is for a conversation about post modernism? when is the LEAST appropriate time to be pointing out to someone that their ethnic group identity is socially constructed?
... you guessed it, the answer is DURING AN ONGOING GENOCIDE
know why? because the illusions of identity, the lies of nation and state, are literally killing them and their families.
if i'm literally punching you in the face, while you're pinned to the ground, i could also lecture you about all the empty space between the atoms that make up the molecules in the flesh and bones of my hand, so you see, it's just an illusion of particle physics that makes it SEEM like when my fist breaks your nose, there's actually nothing but empty space!!!
so now i'm doing a pedantic lecture as well as punching you in the face, this is called an "analogy", which agamben makes frequent use of so yeah.
FACC: "t it's infinitely
anon (not verified) Mon, 05/06/2024 - 22:25
In reply to binaries/anarchism by Moe Fridim (not verified)
FACC: "t it's infinitely more anarchist to fly a Palestinian flag..." Nope, you troll.
what is "ad nauseum..." is
anon (not verified) Mon, 05/06/2024 - 13:24
In reply to so i think that we've heard by anon (not verified)
what is "ad nauseum..." is that so-called anarchists become less an less anarchists every fucking day.
instead, they are knee-jerk reactionary puppets in political games over and over again...
SIGH what do you think
lumpy (not verified) Mon, 05/06/2024 - 13:51
In reply to what is "ad nauseum..." is by anon (not verified)
SIGH what do you think reactionary means? hint: it's not just about reacting
thanks for the hint brah, but
anon (not verified) Mon, 05/06/2024 - 15:36
In reply to SIGH what do you think by lumpy (not verified)
thanks for the hint brah, but im speaking politically. there is no doubt that's what so many anarchists have done for way too long
"speaking politically"? then
lumpy (not verified) Tue, 05/07/2024 - 11:11
In reply to thanks for the hint brah, but by anon (not verified)
"speaking politically"? then you should look up what the word means because no. completely wrong.
Straight answer to your
anon (not verified) Mon, 05/06/2024 - 22:33
In reply to so i think that we've heard by anon (not verified)
Straight answer to your question: trash that national-islamic flag, and wave THE FUCKING BLACK FLAG, DAMNIT!
This is OUR flag... the flag of no nation, no state, no People, no borders, no god and no masters.
No other flag than the negation of flags, and nationaltards feck off.
(answer to 07:42)
anon (not verified) Mon, 05/06/2024 - 22:35
In reply to Straight answer to your by anon (not verified)
(answer to 07:42)
as alluded to in someone else
anon (not verified) Tue, 05/07/2024 - 07:57
In reply to (answer to 07:42) by anon (not verified)
as alluded to in someone else's comment, a black flag (and really i'd say "no flag" is more anarchist than any flag, including a black one, but regardless) doesn't communicate clearly what the flag bearer is going for.
so as a way of communicating to anyone who doesn't already know some stuff (and even some who do), it's definitely unclear.
do you only want protestors to communicate only with people who already understand them?
red flag / black flag
Moe Fridim (not verified) Tue, 05/07/2024 - 00:13
In reply to Straight answer to your by anon (not verified)
Anarchists also flew the red flag (instead of the black flag) during the Mexican Revolution and Louise Michel still threatened to use the red flag and defend it after using the black flag during the Paris bread lootings (after coming back from New Caledonia / Kanaky). Instead of going ALL CAPS and ALL CRUSADER maybe just read a fucking book so you don't look like such an ignorant fool making up bullshit claims about anarchists. Or just own up to being the right-wing freak that you are. Save your time. Additionally a shame for me to be the bearer of bad news for an Islamophobe and black flag lover like you, but a solid black flag/standard/banner was used by Islamic regimes/organizations as well as by anarchists. There's no exclusive claim to it and it's not the only flag anarchists have used. No knowledge, no anarchist principles, no commenting, simple as. Keep your mouth shut when you're talking. Negation of the moronic peanut gallery.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Standard
I don't see your point here
anon (not verified) Tue, 05/07/2024 - 07:44
In reply to red flag / black flag by Moe Fridim (not verified)
...aside than doing more forced idelogical shoehorning that reveals your own despotism.
- "Mexican anarchists" is a blurry designation; it can mean anyone, as Emiliano Zapata was a nationalist and populist while still being held (by some) as an odd pioneer of Mexican anarchism... while also a national hero of the Republic of Mexico, even with several towns and streets named after him!
- Louise Michel was ancom or just a radical socialist, and so are the contemporaries (including you) taking her as inspiration.
- Both were pre-WW2 iterations of whatever they were into. They had no knowledge thus far of the split between socialists and anarchists or the consequences of siding with Redfash like the Blanquists.
- What was the narrative employed by Thiers to mobilize the French nationalists and march to Paris? Ddin't it have to do with national liberation of a severely-threatened French Republic, up against a more powerful invading empire? Or do you really think Hamas and Islamic Jihad would be nicer toward a bunch of queer atheist radical anarcho-communists and their Commune!? Hums...
- Louise Michel supported a nationalist cause? That's very debatable... Her siding with the socialists? True, tho she wasn't the last to be doing mistakes, if you look at Kropotkin and his former support for engagement in WW1. But hey... that too was anti-imperialism right?
- The Red flag is the flag of socialism and communism, and is not interchangeable with a representation of *political negation* that the black flag is.
speaking of "moronic"...
anon (not verified) Tue, 05/07/2024 - 11:43
In reply to red flag / black flag by Moe Fridim (not verified)
Comparing the Black Standard to the anarchist Black Flag?
...as if the black bloc are fascists just coz they wear black like the OG black uniforms of the fascio, of the Black Legion or Strasser's Black Front are anarchist?
A standard btw is not the same piece of cloth than a flag.
But let's say... to avoid confusion with your "freedom fighter" jihadists, we may just add an @ on the black flags.
there are many and completely
anonymous (not verified) Tue, 05/07/2024 - 13:08
In reply to speaking of "moronic"... by anon (not verified)
there are many and completely contradictory understandings of anarchism/anarchy (however wrong everyone else is), including some held by racists, etc.
so flying a flag with an anarchist symbol on it does not clarify anything (in general, but also specifically in this hypothetical situation).
i'm not trying to be difficult. i'm just pointing out that there are limited options in scenarios that don't allow for informed conversation (like most protests), and still wondering how you would address that.
well then I'll be difficulterer!
anon (not verified) Tue, 05/07/2024 - 15:04
In reply to there are many and completely by anonymous (not verified)
I get flying a flag still is just representation politics, along with their usual problems and limitations, but it's a clearer anarchist message than brandish an outright nationalist flag. Of course it's all about the context...
The deeper question is about engagement. Or do anarchists really need to take *any* position or engagement whatsoever is such a highly-polarized movement that's completely unrelated and neither too inclusive to anarchist views? There appears to be a FOMO about not engaging in some protest movement, but that's not the first or last movement that anarchists would maybe wanna stay away from (the example of the Convoy Protests was valid, to that regard).
Or how to even have a conversation on such issues, in daily life... save at an anarchist convergence. At least without being targeted for later retaliation by dogmatic thugs from either sides of the conflict. As far as I can tell, the best that is being done is to be exposing these movements, on either side, for the exploitative, destructive games they're playing on the more gullible people.
Tho is distancing in silence (or at best passive statements or rep politics) the only response to the influence of these specific interests and their movements? I'd like an answer to this.
The lack of answer doesn't mean that the question ain't good tho. Either ask better questions, or just look deeper for the answer.
"Tho is distancing in silence
lumpy (not verified) Wed, 05/08/2024 - 13:07
In reply to well then I'll be difficulterer! by anon (not verified)
"Tho is distancing in silence (or at best passive statements or rep politics) the only response to the influence of these specific interests and their movements? I'd like an answer to this."
I agree, great question and there's been some answers imo although they're obviously not 1:1 comparisons
in the pre-war ukraine, i've read that anarchists participated in the maidan revolts, alongside the ultra nationalists and fascists and it seems to have gone very poorly for them. i'm not convinced that anything positive came from it in the grand scheme of things.
another example in contrast, would be the yellow vest movement in france, where i've read that anarchists were initially (and understandable) very reluctant to participate in what seemed to be a reactionary populist movement about fuel prices but as it built up and generalized in to a classic case of the french being the french, some anarchists felt that it was useful to aggressively compete with the far right for "the soul of the movement", if you will. there were some large, pitched battles about it.
so i think the details really start to matter with this stuff and it's definitely not a yes-or-no question
I can agree about the Yellow
anon (not verified) Wed, 05/08/2024 - 15:48
In reply to "Tho is distancing in silence by lumpy (not verified)
I can agree about the Yellow Vest participation... but in a way it became more of a détournement, and somewhat successful one. Many authoritarian Leftists did the same, tho, so it wasn't just anarchists. Populism is quite a drug, still.
Apparently Muslims and
anon (not verified) Tue, 05/07/2024 - 05:59
Apparently Muslims and nationalists are anarchists now. Maybe next year slavery, fascism and brutality against women will become pillars of anarchic thought.
...and let's not forget
anon (not verified) Tue, 05/07/2024 - 08:44
In reply to Apparently Muslims and by anon (not verified)
...and let's not forget reform, charity, and rights, they seem to be main pillars these days too....
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