One year after the Hamas attack on Israel, I think it is important to take a look at how the Islamist group's escalation of the conflict that has been going on for generations has once again shown how the German left fails to understand international politics. As a result, we see how the left and many anarchists in the country can't find a reasonable approach to the war in Israel/Palestine and now in Lebanon. This text will hardly come as a surprise to activists in Germany. At the same time, I think it's important for anarchists and leftists in other regions to understand the German “Antideutsch” and not just see it as a joke version of some kind of political correctness, but rather as a political movement with its own ideals.
No time for history?
There is no point in delving too deeply into the history of the antigermans – a movement born out of authoritarian K-Groups (Communist Groups) critical of German reunification, the antigermans developed their ideology as a mixture of anti-nationalism and pro-Western stance. Antigermans not only stand for solidarity with Israel – more radical and reactionary parts of the movement support US imperial projects around the world in various forms. The pro-Zionist part of antigerman ideology can be seen as part of the struggle against antisemitism, but also as an attempt by certain parts of the communist movement to distance themselves from national liberation movements, including the Palestinian struggle for independence from Israel.
Over the years, with the decline of national liberation movements around the world, the main project of antigermans became support for Israel and their own version of the struggle against antisemitism. Support for the Israeli state very quickly turned into support for all the policies of the Israeli government, no matter how horrible they were. I've met quite a few antigermans who would describe themselves as pro-Zionists, and even some who call themselves “Zionists” without any connection to the Jewish community. Even though some of the criticism of Zionism is outright anti-Semitic, antigermans will put aside any criticism even if it comes from within the Jewish community itself. To label such criticism as anti-Semitic is an easy way out of any discussion or the need to critically examine one's own political views.
Quite often within the antigerman scene you can find racism against Arabs who are eagerly put into the “muslim” box. Relations with the Jewish left and anarchists are complicated. While most of them prefer to ignore anti-Zionist Jews, some parts of the antigerman movement do from time to time attack “wrong” Jews in an attempt to fight antisemitism.
Although the antigerman movement originally appeared among authoritarian communists, its ideology has spread to almost all left-wing and anarchist groups. In a few decades it has managed to become a dominant position on Middle Eastern politics. And even though there are fewer groups today that would describe themselves as purely antigerman, most anarchist and left-wing groups integrate an antigerman agenda into their politics. From the FAU to local anarchist organisations, a pro-Zionist approach can be found as the norm.
From the past into the future?
There was no deep analysis nor attempts to understand the whole complexity of reasons behind attack on 7 October by the german left. Support went straight to the state. Those killed by Hamas and it's allies automatically became “victims”, regardless of their political views on the situation. It was easy for the German left to ignore the calls for de-escalation from the families of the murdered.While the Israeli left and liberals were pretty sure that Netanyahu would escalate the violence in his own interests. While the families of the hostages were protesting against a right-wing government that was trying to use their families as a pretext for war, the German left was eagerly looking for an escalation against “Hamas”. The collective responsibility for Hamas' actions was easily placed on the shoulders of all those living in Gaza Stripe. “They voted for Hamas”, “If they want freedom, they should rise up against Hamas”, “They are anti-Semites who want to drown all the Jews” – these are just some of the ways in which people have been talking about the Israeli operation in Gaza. And I'm not talking about right-wing political movements, I'm talking about a lot of people who consider themselves left-wing or anarchist.
The war crimes committed by the IDF, which were broadcast live on Tiktok, were mostly ignored or made people feel 'concerned', but the general tendency to support the Israeli state continued. The attitude towards Palestinians within the German left remained hostile, while the gap between the reality of what is happening in the Middle East and the made-up world of politics in Germany grew wider. At this point, it is quite common for the German left to justify every questionable action of the Netanyahu government on the grounds of self-defence by the Israeli right. War crimes are considered fine as long as Israel is fights the bad guy – the collective Arabs who are all responsible in one way or another for the anti-Semitic past and present of Europe and the Middle East.
Interestingly, many political positions within the left-wing movement on Israel are in line with the ideology of the German state on this issue. With political parties changing in power, but hardly any of them critical enough to influence the situation in the Middle East in any way. In many ways, the demands and values of the antigerman movement are translated into state policies that ban certain events, withdraw funding from those supporting the boycott campaign, or deny entry to “undesirable” activists. This also applies to educational work – it is quite common for German left-wing projects on Israel to be funded by the German state. Obviously, these educational events are often an extension of political support for Israeli state policy extending it's influence to left-wing and anarchist circles.
With all this in mind, it is only logical that the German left these days prefers to ignore and sometimes proactively isolate leftists, anarchists and even liberals from Israel or Palestine who have something to say on the matter. Events of such activists are sabotaged or struggle to find space to speak [1] (despite the massive infrastructure of the left). Repressions of activists organized by the German state in solidarity with the Palestinians or in protest against the policies of the Netanyahu regime are generally ignored, and foreign activists are left to their own, as the local left movement prefers to ignore the massive pressure building up on the Jewish and Palestinian diaspora. It is more common to see local antifascists protesting with Israeli flags at Palestinian or anti-Zionist Jewish demonstrations than to see them in any way showing solidarity with oppressed people in different parts of the Middle East.
The situation might have been different if the German left had had allies in Israel or Palestine to support in the struggle against Netanyahu and his war machine. But years of antigerman politics, mixed with ignorance of the situation in the Middle East, have put the German left in political isolation: they aren't really needed by the Zionist right, but they don't want to get close to any progressives from Israel or Palestine. The generational development of antigerman ideology makes cooperation with Israeli Jews or Palestinians even more difficult: the leftist and anarchist movement today mostly accepts young people who follow antigerman narratives and pushes those who might question them into the hands of authoritarian communists whose ideological approach to the situation in the Middle East hasn't changed since the death of Mao. As a result, there is very little chance that the situation will actually develop in a reasonable direction in the coming years.
After a year of violence and death, we're seeing pretty much the same mistakes that we've seen in relation to the war in Ukraine – ideology wins out over reality, while very few actually make an effort to understand the situation and develop a serious approach to it. The shock of the war and it's mobilization passes very quickly and most people within the left and anarchist circles fall back to ideological dogmas that were there when they joined political movements. In such an atmosphere, both the left and the anarchist movement are doomed to repeat mistakes and fall into the same trap again and again, unless we decide to make an effort to understand the crisis and develop answers to it according to our political values. Otherwise, in the coming storms of the future, we risk handing the world over to reactionary forces that don't hesitate to use violence and destruction to gain political power.
Through this crisis we can also see the growing gap between the German left and its possible comrades in the crisis zones. As wars and protests demand more solidarity and effort, we witness many abandoning critical politics in favor of the comfort offered by more and more reactionary governments of the so-called “first world”.
But I want to end by actually focusing on those who are trying to break with the antigerman past. There are groups all over the country who work on education, solidarity and cooperation with different Jewish and Palestinian groups. They invest their time in traveling to the occupied territories to get to know the local population and their struggle against state violence. These people, although very small in left and anarchist circles, still give hope that radical and revolutionary politics are alive even in Germany.
1: A lecture by the Jewish anarchist Uri Gordon, organized in Leipzig a few years ago, took place in a private room because no left-wing project agreed to allow him to give his lecture.
Comments
Does anyone know how common
anon (not verified) Tue, 10/08/2024 - 12:47
Does anyone know how common pro-Israel anarchists are in Germany? Or anywhere, for that matter? Who do they associate with? I have a little exposure to the German anarchist space, and knew Antideutsch exists, but never ran into it among anarchists, and I'm wondering how that sort of cognitive dissonance can exist from an explicitly anti-state perspective.
From my sample size of two,
EmmaAintDead Tue, 10/08/2024 - 18:53
In reply to Does anyone know how common by anon (not verified)
From my sample size of two, 100% of the German anarchists I know are pro-Israel.
From my sample size of one conversation with each of them on the subject, it does seem mostly rooted in the antisemitism of Hamas and an unwillingness to come anywhere near supporting that than anything else.
Hamas and Islamists are just
anon (not verified) Wed, 10/09/2024 - 16:09
In reply to From my sample size of two, by EmmaAintDead
Hamas and Islamists are just the tip of the iceberg. You had Nazis behind the Pan-Arab movement and the later Palestinian movement as well. Antisemitiam and Hitler woshipping is still big in this movement, even amongst so-called "Leftist" Palestinian groups.
Yet the most interesting aspect is how a literal monarchist Arab movement is at the roots of what became in the '60s the Palestinian movement. Look at the story behind the flag... it's all there.
It got recuperated by several tendencies and orgs, but initially that's a flag of the fucking HOUSE OF SAUD... representing their claim over the entire region. Taking aside the British Empire's support to this anti-Ottoman liberation.movement, it is, inherently, its own brand of imperialism.
For the ill informed, this
anon (not verified) Wed, 10/16/2024 - 20:44
In reply to Hamas and Islamists are just by anon (not verified)
For the ill informed, this person is giving an argument that is actually a smokescreen for European colonialism. In any history, in any colonized grouping you can find objectionable things here and there. None of that has absolutely anything to do with the struggle against Euro/US settler colonialism, its savagery, or oppressive domination over colonized peoples. In actuality, what we see here is a rather conventional colonial argument. Anarchists would be wise to confront and ostracize people like this. In a struggle against oppression, this poster is clearly on the wrong side of history.
...was the Holocaust also a Euro colonial smokescreen?
anon (not verified) Wed, 10/16/2024 - 21:37
In reply to For the ill informed, this by anon (not verified)
For the ill-informed... the Palestine liberation movement is the by-product OF Euro-colonialism.
The British Mandate of Palestine was a result of a cooperation between the Saudi principalities and the British Empire, to overthrow the Ottoman, so that the British could have a huge stake in the region, for the oil.
So from their business with Sykes & Picot, the Arabic princes got:
- Arabia (under Saudi rule)
- Lebanon
- Jordan
- Syria
Then Balfour drawned a little piece of land on the coast that Jews could use as a new home; the British mandate called "Palestine", likely in relation to the Rome's "Palestina". Ergo... the native Arabs, Syriacs and other still had like 90% of the Middle-East! Including oil-rich areas down south where the Hashemite princes could start their theocratic dictatorships, mostly unopposed.
Now look at this smokescreen... of beautiful & proud little fascist dogs, brandishing a "Palestinian flag", in 1916. But wait... there was no Palestine back then! What happend!?
"Anarchists would be wise to confront an
Ooooooooooh... Looks like another ID pols call-out on its way! But this time against anarchists opposed to nationalist & fascist bullshit? How's this going to work? A FATWA, maybe!?
Get oooooout, you fash cunt...
Good question that nobody
disorder (not verified) Thu, 10/17/2024 - 09:42
In reply to Does anyone know how common by anon (not verified)
Good question that nobody bothers to answer. Two weeks ago I was walking around in Berlin's mostly leftoïd neighborhoods. I have seen very few anti-German stickers, posters or graffiti. Most of them were supporting the "Palestinian struggle", if not "Intifada", and some of them were simple (but very reasonable and salutary) anti-war stances. Now, that's not much for an impression but this whole anti-anti-German rhetoric I've been hearing for one year seems to me more like some "social" network flame war that a real world debate.
I don't mean that the anti-German current doesn't exist but, at least in some contexts, have you considered the possibility that we're talking of a boogeyman? Real question.
A "Zionist anarchist" is a
anon (not verified) Thu, 10/17/2024 - 09:54
In reply to Does anyone know how common by anon (not verified)
A "Zionist anarchist" is a mythical creature that nobody has seen in the wild. Even Breadtubers hate Israel. In fact, everyone BUT the moderates hates Israel, there is no single person on Earth who at least considers themself a radical who supports Israel. Not even ancaps since ancaps are anti-state, anti-war and isolationist in general... At least I assume.
Anti-Zionism is the real anti-centrist unity.
Oooooyes. Nothing like
anon (not verified) Thu, 10/17/2024 - 10:19
In reply to A "Zionist anarchist" is a by anon (not verified)
Oooooyes. Nothing like maintaining that Venn Diagram with antisemites and Neonazis.
Power through Unity! :-/
I don't mean to blow your
anon (not verified) Thu, 10/17/2024 - 10:24
In reply to Oooooyes. Nothing like by anon (not verified)
I don't mean to blow your mind but Zionists ARE the neonazis, brah.
I was just joking, anon.
anon (not verified) Thu, 10/17/2024 - 11:11
In reply to Oooooyes. Nothing like by anon (not verified)
I was just joking, anon. Obviously anti-Semites hate Israel for... different reasons.
Some parts of it are good and
anon (not verified) Tue, 10/08/2024 - 14:56
Some parts of it are good and it's definitely a conversation Germans need to have between them, but overall the perspective is too western and some nuance is lacking. This is not "Netanyahu" and his government/war machine, but zionism. The author put way too much focus on liberal israelis and "victims" (families of hostages etc.), focusing on the internal discourse and protests within the settler society, making any effort not avoid support for the Palestinian resistance, and even not calling what happening right now a genocide. The author clearly has good intentions and it's not a bad text but I suggest having the courage to push a bit forward
Jews, Palestinians, and AntiGermans
Wayne Price (not verified) Tue, 10/08/2024 - 15:43
In reply to Some parts of it are good and by anon (not verified)
I understand your point, but I suspect that the author was focused on another point: that *even* in a situation where there is dissent among Israeli Jews, the antigerman Leftists and (good god!) anarchists are supporting the far-right government of Israel and its war-making and genocide. At least up until the government's attack on Lebanon, a possible majority of Israelis wanted Netanyahu out of power, yet these "radicals" were still supporting him and his regime. Even the US state (which has a somewhat broader worldview than that of the little Israeli state) has been somewhat trying to get the Israelis to slow down and look a little more reasonable in their war waging. But not these antigermans. This is consistent with the pro-Israeli stance of the German state which persecutes pro-Palestinians.
Gee Wayne, sounds kind of
anon (not verified) Sat, 10/12/2024 - 08:25
In reply to Jews, Palestinians, and AntiGermans by Wayne Price (not verified)
Gee Wayne, sounds kind of like how you’re aligned with the US government in supporting the far-right Ukrainian state that’s been waging war on an autonomy-seeking minority group for over a decade. Why can’t you be consistent?
Consistency, consistency....
Wayne Price (not verified) Sat, 10/12/2024 - 16:11
In reply to Gee Wayne, sounds kind of by anon (not verified)
Another reader who can't find anything to say about the Israeli/Palestinian war (the subject of the above article) but has to find something to say about Ukraine, in order to dispute with me. Sigh.
Apparently you think that the main issue in the Ukrainian/Russian war is not Russian imperialist aggression against the Ukrainian people. No, you think it is that the "Ukrainian state [has] been waging war on an autonomy-seeking minority group for over a decade." This is so far from reality that I can find nothing to say in response.
I know you can’t find
anon (not verified) Sun, 10/13/2024 - 08:15
In reply to Consistency, consistency.... by Wayne Price (not verified)
I know you can’t find anything to say Wayne because you have completely bought in to a one-sides propaganda narrative. Like when you say that I can’t find anything to say about Palestine. These are anonymous comments for Pete’s sake, I comment about tons of shit on here. Unlike you I’m not obsessed with shoving my name in everyone’s face because I think my ideas are more important. You’ve made yourself a target by your advocacy and now you’re whining about it. Get over yourself and either defend what you have to say or maybe just don’t say it.
You were already calling the
anon (not verified) Tue, 10/08/2024 - 18:32
In reply to Some parts of it are good and by anon (not verified)
You were already calling the actions of Israel a "genocide" before even Oct 7 2023, when things had been pretty calm for a few years... so where is your threshold for a "genocide", really? I'm not denying Israel's conducting massacres since last year, but also many bombings have been on the record proven to be exaggerated by Hamas' media, that's got zero interest in being truthful. Their only goals are to get rid of Israel and form a Muslim Arabic ethno-state, which they been running already at a small scale.
it's not really a
lumpy (not verified) Wed, 10/09/2024 - 09:08
In reply to You were already calling the by anon (not verified)
it's not really a subjectivity ... there's a widely used and quite precise definition/discussion of the word genocide, recognized by the UN and it strongly indicts lots of countries like canada and the us, who are absolutely still actively genociding their indigenous populations to this day. this is not up for debate unless somebody has a severe case of nationalist ideology and prefers it to reality
by that mainstream definition, israel has been genociding since the very beginning
Genocide?
Wayne Price (not verified) Thu, 10/10/2024 - 14:54
In reply to You were already calling the by anon (not verified)
So you don't want to call Israel's actions "genocide" but accept that there have been "massacres." Seems like genocide to me when Israel sought to stop all food, water, and medicine from entering Gaza at first, and have been continually bombing and carrying out mass murders. But I'll accept "massacres."
This is like the argument over whether Hamas militants committed specific atrocities, such as sexual attacks, when there is no question that it attacked, killed, and kidnapped, noncombatant, unarmed, and nonresistant civilians--which is sufficiently an atrocity and war crime.
Look, I hate to play with
anon (not verified) Thu, 10/10/2024 - 17:19
In reply to Genocide? by Wayne Price (not verified)
Look, I hate to play with mass-murder semantics but you, UkWayne, and the other international-nationalists are the ones talking about genocide in the first place. But...
"Genocide: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a group of people because of their ethnicity, nationality, religion, or race. The term, derived from the Greek genos (“race,” “tribe,” or “nation”) and the Latin cide (“killing”), was coined by Raphael Lemkin, a Polish-born jurist who served as an adviser to the U.S. Department of War during World War II."
https://www.britannica.com/topic/genocide
Israel is officially waging war on the political organizations behind the Oct 7th 2023 attacks. Is this war really about exterminating Palestinians? For some faction of the Israeli state, it is. For some others, it is.*not*. That's why that government is mincing its words and at least using the war on Hamas narrative, like.Dubya has used the war on.Al Qaeda to justify bombing Afhanistan for years.
Am I against that bullshit? Totally. But the wording of genocide is over-the-top.
Israeli state is.run by fascist butchers. But that doesn't take away the fact that the *exact same*.can be said of.Palestine. And I know.what mujahideen are, and it's not "freedom fighters".
Funny part is the UN could have saved this mass-slaughter from happening with a few political moves, like blaming Hamas for their attacks (which it still didn't do), bringing them to that BS International Court and flushing the UNRWA. This would have cut the grass from beneath the Likud's agenda and likely hollowed the cause for a massive military assault in response.
But as seen with Rwanda, Tigray, Haiti and Sudan, the UN seems to be totally fine with massacres and even genocides of non-White people. A lot more than Israel does.
Genocide or Mass Murder?
Wayne Price (not verified) Fri, 10/11/2024 - 12:28
In reply to Look, I hate to play with by anon (not verified)
As I said, I am not all that interested in "mass-murder semantics" either. You write, "Israel is officially waging war on the political organizations behind the Oct 7th 2023 attacks." Yeah, "officially." Actually, in Gaza and in the West Bank, Israel is waging horrific war on the Palestinian people. I call it "genocide." In your terms, this is "mass-murder," or "mass-slaughter", committed by an "Israeli state...run by fascist butchers" of whom "some faction [how big?] of the Israeli state" is in favor of "exterminating Palestinians."
Meanwhile you focus on the evils of the Hamas leadership of the Palestinian struggle in Gaza. As an anarchist I agree with you about Hamas and similar nationalist, theocratic (or Marxist-Leninist), authoritarian parties. But the Palestinian people are more than this. They are an oppressed nation which has every right to rebell against their oppressor and to seek self-determination. I can condemn the political program, ideology, and criminal atrocities of their leaderships, while still being in solidarity with the oppressed peasants, workers, and shopkeepers of Palestine.
Ukraine is also run by
anon (not verified) Sat, 10/12/2024 - 08:50
In reply to Genocide or Mass Murder? by Wayne Price (not verified)
Ukraine is also run by fascist butchers. If you love national minority politics so much, why didn’t the Russian speakers of Ukraine deserve to keep their language rights and cross-border ties? That’s not oppressive enough? When does the oppression meter hit the point where it’s at least understandable to go all brutal right wing national[“ liberation”]ist and start blowing up civilians?
your last question is a self
lumpy (not verified) Sat, 10/12/2024 - 15:48
In reply to Ukraine is also run by by anon (not verified)
your last question is a self-report which says - not an anarchist
Wrong lump it’s a rhetorical
anon (not verified) Sun, 10/13/2024 - 08:13
In reply to your last question is a self by lumpy (not verified)
Wrong lump it’s a rhetorical question turning WP’s words back on himself. Try to keep up !
oh i see! my mistake. you're
lumpy (not verified) Sun, 10/13/2024 - 09:54
In reply to Wrong lump it’s a rhetorical by anon (not verified)
oh i see! my mistake. you're trying to pull wayne's @ card? can't say i blame you...
Changing the subject to Ukraine, huh?
Wayne Price (not verified) Sat, 10/12/2024 - 15:48
In reply to Ukraine is also run by by anon (not verified)
Ukraine has fascists in it but is not run by them. The government is waging a war, but is not "butchers." It is overwhelmingly the invading Russians who are "blowing up civilians."
In my opinion (as I said before) the Russian speakers of Ukraine deserved to keep their language rights. They should have been offered regional autonomy, which seems to be what most wanted. That they weren't doesn't justify Russia's invasion of the whole country, including trying to take over Kyiv and the rest of Ukraine.
Well, no, but the question
anon (not verified) Sun, 10/13/2024 - 08:06
In reply to Changing the subject to Ukraine, huh? by Wayne Price (not verified)
Well, no, but the question you seem to be struggling with is how to relate when both sides are doing unjustifiable things. I asked you two years ago why you thought institutions like UN, Amnesty International and OSCE (which are either neutral or pro-Ukraine in this conflict) all reported on the war crimes committed by BOTH sides in Donbas 2014-22. I guess you’re just really deep in denial about that because having picked a side to support you need to pretend they’re morally pure?
And yet you can’t admit that
anon (not verified) Sat, 10/12/2024 - 08:43
In reply to Genocide? by Wayne Price (not verified)
And yet you can’t admit that Ukraine has committed war crimes…
Says Who?
Wayne Price (not verified) Sat, 10/12/2024 - 15:55
In reply to And yet you can’t admit that by anon (not verified)
Still can't get away from Ukraine....
If the question is addressed to me, I reject it. Who says I "can't admit that Ukraine has committed war crimes"? I assume that a bourgeois state which is waging a war (however it serves the self-determination of its people) will commit war crimes. (We can discuss specific cases.) This does not make it equivalent to an imperialist invading and occupying state.
They invaded and occupied the
anon (not verified) Sun, 10/13/2024 - 08:09
In reply to Says Who? by Wayne Price (not verified)
They invaded and occupied the Donbas when it declared independence; why is that not imperialist? Seriously. Don’t be surprised when people call out your hypocrisy, since you have been such a champion of the Ukraine war and are still trying to split hairs as to why far right nationalist militaries committing war crimes don’t deserve to be called “fascist butchers” because of some stupid lines on a map (and I guess because you bought into the liberal-imperialist history of Ukraine that was blitzed in the media, because it’s all you seem to know about the country)
UkWayne still dodging the
anon (not verified) Sun, 10/13/2024 - 11:49
In reply to They invaded and occupied the by anon (not verified)
UkWayne still dodging the Referendum Paradox like a George Dubya dodged shoe attacks and compromising questions about the WMDs.
Hamas ethnostate?
anon (not verified) Sat, 10/12/2024 - 08:39
In reply to You were already calling the by anon (not verified)
I don’t support Hamas obviously but you’ve got to give the devil his due instead of buying into propaganda. Palestinians/the sum total of non-Israeli residents of the region have ethnic and religious diversity. There was a time when a faction of Hamas tried to impose Islamic law and it didn’t work. They are religious and conservative but not in that much weirder of a way than how most Christian countries are. They even changed their notorious charter so that it’s literally less racist and theocratic than the Israeli Basic Laws which stipulate a state of, by and for Jewish people only.
And the key issue we should have with both Hamas and the Zionist entity is not (just) that they are racist and/ or theocratic but that they are bourgeois states (or quasi states in waiting) and the right wing cultural politics are simply the most reliable way to shore that up. Why not talk about the Hamas leaders who live in the Gulf? I’m more interested in understanding their social function rather than fear mongering about what they’d do if Israel didn’t have its boot on everyone’s throat.
"Why not talk about the Hamas
anon (not verified) Sat, 10/12/2024 - 11:04
In reply to Hamas ethnostate? by anon (not verified)
"Why not talk about the Hamas leaders who live in the Gulf? I’m more interested in understanding their social function"
They can be found in posh luxury hotels in Dubai and Qatar. You might wanna try go asking them wtf are they doing there instead of being accountable for the wars they're starting and massacres they're organizing? Palestine's just a political vehicle for Arabic/Muslim domination of the region. "Palestinian flag origins" look it up; it didn't exist as a political cause prior to the '60s.
Look it up where? On the
anon (not verified) Sun, 10/13/2024 - 07:32
In reply to "Why not talk about the Hamas by anon (not verified)
Look it up where? On the website of the hasbara org that employs you?
"This is not "Netanyahu" and
anon (not verified) Thu, 10/17/2024 - 07:46
In reply to Some parts of it are good and by anon (not verified)
"This is not "Netanyahu" and his government/war machine, but zionism."
That's quite the opposite... The conservative Right has fucked up Israel since the Begin regime. Zionism is *not* a single, united ideology, and has had a liberal Left aspect, especially with Hertzl.
Not saying the landgrabs were cool. Just that there's a lot of misinformation about this movement, that wasn't all Jewish-exclusive, and surely not Euro/White exclusive.
"After a year of violence and
anon (not verified) Tue, 10/08/2024 - 19:20
"After a year of violence and death, we're seeing pretty much the same mistakes that we've seen in relation to the war in Ukraine – ideology wins out over reality, while very few actually make an effort to understand the situation and develop a serious approach to it. The shock of the war and it's mobilization passes very quickly and most people within the left and anarchist circles fall back to ideological dogmas that were there when they joined political movements. In such an atmosphere, both the left and the anarchist movement are doomed to repeat mistakes and fall into the same trap again and again, unless we decide to make an effort to understand the crisis and develop answers to it according to our political values. Otherwise, in the coming storms of the future, we risk handing the world over to reactionary forces that don't hesitate to use violence and destruction to gain political power."
Well, yes... and that's actually precisely why I've been working (here on this site like elsewhere) to break apart the ideologies that force-crush people down funnels of political fanaticism with their one-sided views of problems and their replies to questions never asked.
Can any of you get me the author who once said something like anarchists do not only care about the answers, but also rethinking the questions in the first place? Caused I totally think that's what anarchism is about, and why it'll never really stick to these national narratives.
WHO the fuck in Israel and Palestinian regions for real, really? The deeper you look into the events of the past 150 years over there, the more both sides of this conflict look like con men, and of the most brutish kind.
to your last point, that's
lumpy (not verified) Wed, 10/09/2024 - 09:23
In reply to "After a year of violence and by anon (not verified)
to your last point, that's exactly right
and then if you're like me, the next thing you do is some simple math about relative military strength and who is acting as proxies for who. that's the completely amoral hobbesian war POV, where there's only different sets of very unpleasant people, fighting over land and resources like all of human history
BUT that stuff has nothing to do with an anarchist ethical POV, where all that matters is the vast majority of ordinary people who were just trying to live their lives and then got butchered, 98% of whom are not israelis
the grim math ... bleak stuff
Please don't demonize the
anon (not verified) Wed, 10/09/2024 - 10:15
In reply to to your last point, that's by lumpy (not verified)
Please don't demonize the completely amoral hobbesian war POV
SEE YOU IN TAMPA. LET'S GOOOO!
HGS #247
far from it! best thing ever
lumpy (not verified) Wed, 10/09/2024 - 10:32
In reply to Please don't demonize the by anon (not verified)
far from it! best thing ever written by a monarchist, me and ol' hobbes only differ on the conclusion
he's all like - i love the sweet taste of that shiny, fancy boot! step on me harder big daddy!
but i'm like - all of this is stupid and terrible but it IS true that humans suck and for that, we must arm ourselves
The Western opposition to
anon (not verified) Wed, 10/09/2024 - 12:15
In reply to to your last point, that's by lumpy (not verified)
The Western opposition to this war is very much dominated by interest groups and cults that are part of the "brutish con men". So how to oppose this war better, is the question I'm asking. Lotsa people appear to have grown suspicious of the Pro-Palestine so-called Left activism, as the protests in Canada at least failed to gain a solid momentum despite some media attention for a while. And it's not like Occupy, even if it attempted to copy it, as this ain't a struggle where rando kids from poor or middle classes can see a stake in it, even if our usual liberal college kids, tho, might see one.
The question of anarchist engagement in these single-issue struggles remains open wide, and probably can't be answered at all. People all over the world are born to be victims of the unfortunate circumstances created and maintained by states. A great thing to do would be to develop networks of solidarity beyond and under the radar of state controls, that also reject these false allies (like Muslim Brotherhood covert groups and funds, etc).
I see a lot of relevance for anarchists in supporting people in Gaza territories falling prey to the Israeli state, yet I still can't see much in supporting "Palestine".. which is pretty much a mostly yet-unexposed bullshit spook set up by racial & religious authoritarians. See the origins of the Palestinian flags for a better perspective on it.
Funny you mention Canada and
anon (not verified) Wed, 10/09/2024 - 13:19
In reply to The Western opposition to by anon (not verified)
Funny you mention Canada and Palestine but reduce Palestinian solidarity to a "single-issue", as if non-native anarchists in Canada shouldn't also be in solidarity with the Indigenous peoples whose territories they occupy, they should just stand on a corner shouting "we want everything" and never fucking actually do anything else for fear that a Zionist troll or bot might comment about them online.
Here's a nuance the vast
anon (not verified) Wed, 10/09/2024 - 16:20
In reply to Funny you mention Canada and by anon (not verified)
Here's a nuance the vast majority of people writing on the topic aren't making: Palestinians are indigenous to that region, but *not* Arabs.
Palestinians have been dominated and assimilated by an Arabic theocracy, the caliphates of Bagdhad, that invaded the whole Middle-East, North Africa and parts of Europe. It was the greatest empire what we call tgr Mediecal era. Formerly.Phillistines had a different language, culture and religion.
Okay what is your fucking
anon (not verified) Sun, 10/13/2024 - 08:11
In reply to Here's a nuance the vast by anon (not verified)
Okay what is your fucking point even if this rather fuzzy theory was accurate? Do you think we’re blood and soil nationalists who think certain ethnic groups belong in certain pieces of territory?
I'd like you to look into the
anon (not verified) Thu, 10/17/2024 - 10:34
In reply to Okay what is your fucking by anon (not verified)
I'd like you to look into the actual history of the Pan-Arab movement from the downfall of the Ottoman up until it became "Palestinian". But my "point", if I got any clear, decisive one, is just that Palestinian liberation struggle is as much a political giga-spook as the Zionist plan for a Promised Land.
While there was at least some spiritual ground for building a mythical "Zion", that used to be inherently anti-colonial as far as it included an African Judaist perspective... but now it's quite clearly a materialistic, capitalist project with White supremacist *influence*. Zion as a project has devolved into the worst of Babylon.
"After a year of violence and
Donny Dogma (not verified) Wed, 10/09/2024 - 11:46
"After a year of violence and death, we're seeing pretty much the same mistakes that we've seen in relation to the war in Ukraine – ideology wins out over reality, while very few actually make an effort to understand the situation and develop a serious approach to it."
Funny since this person supports the Ukrainian state and NATO war effort and gets upset whenever they see an anarchist criticize NATO. In reality they are closer to the anti-germans than they'd like to admit, since they all support some states or other, NATO states support both Ukraine and Israel, Ukraine uses Israeli weapons and technology, the Ukrainian state supports Israel politically, and the US used its ammo cache in Israel to arm Ukraine.
"The shock of the war and it's mobilization passes very quickly and most people within the left and anarchist circles fall back to ideological dogmas that were there when they joined political movements."
If you don't like anarchist dogmas about being against the State and militarism or whatever you can always just be a liberal or marxist or whatever instead. Nothing is stopping you!
CIA and right wing propaganda
anon (not verified) Thu, 10/10/2024 - 06:37
CIA and right wing propaganda up to 100 in the comments here. ^^^
So true!
Leftist Wojack (not verified) Thu, 10/10/2024 - 10:57
In reply to CIA and right wing propaganda by anon (not verified)
CIA is ON RECORD supporting anarchist critics.of NATO wars and support to fascist nationalist movements. CIA's really against the Right-wing but also pushing Right-wing propaganda. It depends really on how I feel like right now and also how I don't like commenters having different opinions. "Logic" also is Right-wing propaganda.
Systematic and widespread
Anon (not verified) Fri, 10/11/2024 - 15:40
Systematic and widespread bombing of hospitals, refugee camps, schools, water sanitation plants, and entire residential neighborhoods is genocidal. Israel's own war cabinet is extremely clear about their intent and explicitly said they would employ a complete seige of Gaza that would specifically cut off all access to electricity, water, and food to over 2 million people, and that the Israeli army is quote "dealing with human animals and will act accordingly". Direct quote from Yoav Gallant, war minister.
Over 16,000 children have been killed so far and that doesn't include the over 20,000 children reported missing who are still buried under the rubble, blown to shreds, buried in mass graves unidentified, or held prisoner by the Israeli military. That number also doesn't include all the children who are dying from infectious diseases or from being unable to get life saving medication for treatable chronic illnesses.
Genocide - no question.
anon (not verified) Sat, 10/12/2024 - 08:09
In reply to Systematic and widespread by Anon (not verified)
The list of quotes from Israeli leaders talking about wiping Gaza off the map, how there is no such thing as a Palestinian civilian - we have the systematic destruction of human life and its necessary infrastructures, along with overt detailing of the war’s genocidal intent. There is no question of denying that this is at the very least an “attempted genocide” in progress, i.e., an ongoing genocide.
Right now the settler movement, when not engaging in pogroms in the West Bank, is buzzing about the possibility of settling in Lebanon (or “southern Lebanon” where western media carefully avoids the word “invasion” while Israelis say that Lebanon is not a real country). This may sound far fetched but it’s in line with the history of expansion.
Yes, it is an insane religious zealot’s dream to imagine that major swaths of the Middle East could be depopulated and resettled as Greater Israel, but not only are we dealing with a LOT of well-funded, well-armed religious and racial zealots, but I’m afraid that given the Zionist project’s notorious history as “laboratory of repression” and cat’s-paw of western imperialism, we might be looking at a test run for how to conduct mass genocide in age when mass climate related migrations are expected. It is insane, and I don’t really like engaging in conspiratorial speculation, but again, I think it’s been put out pretty clearly by a lot of elites that they want to reduce population, they want to colonize space, they’re building bunkers and talking about “lifeboats”… and capitalism after all, in its decadent phase after conquering the globe, needs (or thinks it needs) periodic episodes of massive destruction to reboot the economy- the classic boom and bust cycle…
from here in southern europe
anon (not verified) Sat, 10/12/2024 - 10:30
from here in southern europe i can confirm that german "left" and german "anarchists" are almost all terrible-- obsessed with electoral politics and almost all support israeli warcrimes.
actual german anarchists have abandoned germany for other places where the anarchist movement isn't a sick pro-genocide funhouse mirror.
This comment section reads
anon (not verified) Sat, 10/12/2024 - 15:06
This comment section reads like it could be at the bottom of a Washington Post article.
Wayne actually does write for
anon (not verified) Sun, 10/13/2024 - 08:12
In reply to This comment section reads by anon (not verified)
Wayne actually does write for the Post
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