Joe Rogan Experience #1572 - Moxie Marlinspike

joe rogan's singal pin is 69420

From Joe Rogan Show via YouTube

Computer security researcher Moxie Marlinspike is the creator of the encrypted messenger service Signal, and co-founder of the Signal Foundation: a nonprofit dedicated to global freedom of speech through the development of open-source privacy technology.

Originally posted on Spotify here:

There are 64 Comments

ever get the feeling like certain nerds will always be howling at the moon in a cybernetic wilderness while most of us idiots do stupid or questionable things because they kind of work for now?

I understand that throwing borderline sexist slur (like "c*nt") at Moxie was likely a good cause to remove the comment.

On the other hand, what does it say of Moxie very nicely standing by a sexist pig like Rogan, who's been befriending even more sexist & racist Alt-Right pigs over the years like Gavin McInnes?

What does it say of the awesome PR job he did to Elon Musk?

Also being fully chill as Rogan goes on a gratuitous crybabying digression at how Trump got attacked by "rude" commenters on Twitter for a long time?

I mean wtf.

In a way, we can thanks Joe Reagan for demonstrating how Moxie's a treacherous corporate psychopath himself, who'll embrace even Far Right sympathizers if this can benefit his own tech venture...

Neoliberal White hipster just jumped in his coffin with that and put the lid over so we can nail it for good. And I/we already are.

Never rise from that shithole, Moxie, and you'd better hope we'll never cross paths. For now I'll be trashing Signal the same way I been trashing Facebook for a few hundred years.

C%#t is not sexist Or its as sexist as -- F#%k you --which hints at violent rape. But to judge expletives morally is absurd, it is a universal practise amongst all cultures to use genitilia or excrement and the act of fornication and ablution in a derogatory tone and context because of its private and sensitive nature. It is a way of penetrating the silence and expose and shame a person, and far more preferable than physical violence as a warning or psychological venting and saving of face without causing injury. DAMN YOU is ok, TROLL PENIS SCUM or NAZI ANAL ORIFICE or FASCIST VULVA or CAPITALIST BLOOD FART are all excellent terms.

the outrage that anarchists and leftists are showing toward moxie on social media is absurd. moxie came across as an sincere and intelligent person that was using a massive platform to say some smart and largely anti-authoritarian things. in no way was moxie's appearance on rogan's show legitimizing rogan or his views. if anything it introduced joe and his listeners to a perspective that they generally would not hear. moxie even slipped in a "the secret is to begin," which should make some folx overjoyed.

folx outraged at moxie are simply still promoting insular bubbles, magical thinking, and great man theories... moxie NOT going on rogan would have zero "desired" outcomes and initiate zero anything (and we all know the folx who are outraged demand something!), not even the burning outrage that gets folx's blood flowing just enough to take to social media to raise the banners of cancellation!

but, yes, he used his final words to talk about his interest in tracking down the soviet space dog descendants and not to confront rogan about being a dummy that platforms bad people so ...... what a horrible person. right?

yes, it was long and mostly boring.

"well moxie went on the show of a bad person who has bad people as guests in protest i'm not going to use signal and instead use telegram!" --outraged anarcho-activists

ah, the ethical anarcho-consumer. so powerful. amirite? not at all missing the point entirely about secure communication.

"the outrage that anarchists and leftists are showing toward moxie on social media is absurd." the the false outrage loops undermine everyone's communication in about the same way?

One simply has to read interviews with executives whom have left to realize how they found behavrioal loopholes in the brain's reward circuits.

This helps no one but the companies that need your constant engagement, and your 'eyeball hours.'

Do you realize how obnoxious it looks to write folx? It evokes a caricature of what I would assume Rogan fan types would imagine the typical pink haired soyboy anarcho-antifa kid is like. 'Folks' is already gender neutral for fucks sake and every time I hear it I think of Obama. Seriously stop it you're embarrassing.

As I recently learned as well, folx isn't meant to be like latinx, it just uses fewer characters than folks and thus is better for things like the Twitters

lol anon 11:18 cares what rogan fan types think of him. what a beta cuck. we anews folx laugh at your lack of self confidence, anon 11:18.

Now that Signal is finally uninstalled, which messenger will you move to and why is it Jabber?

I thought Riot/Element is pretty okay? I heard about Briar as a better alternative to Signal but it seems to be in a neverending Beta phase...

We need a messaging app that doesn’t require a personal phone number, or, failing that: a verification-number spoofing app that actually works when setting up Signal or Telegram or Whatsapp.

just communicate by sending encrypted csv files with millions of rows and columns of random words and numbers and the communicate the algorithms necessary to extract the message through another means like encrypted email, or morse code kickdrum rhythms in the mix of a specific song of a full album you upload at soundcloud or bandcamp

Jabber plugger here and not a techie. Please elaborate why xml is deprecated?
Also, the Conversations app has standard encrypted audio/video calls .

xml is not deprecated (at least not widely), it is just hugely verbose. and so more terse/efficient alternatives like json rule the day.

Signal plans to remove the phone number requirement, but there are other issues.

Element (decentralized, does not require phone # and on some servers not even an email address, fully open, unlinked to Google/Amazon/Apple/etc...) still has a few rough edges, but it's more than good enough.

Signal plans to remove the phone number requirement"

'kay... they're planning. After years of dodgy privacy practices. Still not done yet.. or ever? So I got zero trust in that Moxie hipster clown, who totally could be on some agency's covert payroll.

Element may be indeed the closest bet we got to a stable and yet more privacy-consistent app. There's Session too but it appears buggy... I'd have to try it.

i don't remember all this moralising when ed snowden was on the joe rogan show...

As someone that largely outgrew Rogan and social media years ago I also don't get it.

I only found out about this podcast episode coming to anews, and I'm probably still not going to listen to it. I already cannot keep up with the podcasts I do listen to, and Rogan isn't that interesting (being always better around MMA, health, and comedian folks anyway).

A bigger issue is that Spotify had the cash flow to make the deal from their pathetic model of bilking artists. First the record companies, and now this shitty distro system. Man do I miss live music, and although a secret bedroom artist myself, I can't imagine how anyone makes even a modicum of a decent living and fanbase in this context devoid of an irl social component. I don't listen to spotify unless given a free trial. The quality is tin, and I'm about priced out of collecting physical media for two reasons: lack of physical copies, and the over-inflated prices of vinyl. Music used to be everything to me...

How terribly capitalism treats creativity, and cultural artifacts.

It's okay to outgrow, and move on from Rogan people!

thought that was a great interview! the snowden one, I mean. seems like radicals warp their own overton expectations about people's politics sometimes tho? snowden is a law and order liberal centrist, for example. so is rogan, for that matter! with hippy hobbies.

i'm less familiar with moxie here but it seems unlikely that they're very radical if they took so little issue with rogan's past associations. does that mean I care about who uses a very basic, accessible encryption app that's better than nothing? why would it?

aren't we accustomed to most people's politics looking like deplorable piles of shit from the anarchist perspective? is there something wrong with my shit glasses?!

"snowden is a law and order liberal centrist, for example. so is rogan, for that matter!"

Moxie's from the US geek anarchist milieu. It is known, by regulars of this very site. While that Overton Window mentioned above is completely irrelevant to someone like Snowden, it takes all its meaning when it comes to someone like Moxie.

For a model, even if Scott Crow being interviewed on the Tucker Carlson Show was questionable, the former made it clear during the interview he totally wasn't ok with the bullshit pulled off by Carlson, and the interview was rather confrontational.

Rogab being liberal centrist is highly questionable, as he's a thinly-veiled Trumptard. Liberal Right-winger... or just Alt Right? I'd rather go for the second option.

it sounds like you have far more benign view of centrist liberals than I do, perhaps? historically, it was often the centrists who enabled, apologized for and paved the way for the far right, which is exactly what rogan does, as you've said.

anyway, I have a great deal of respect for scott crow but I thought him going on carlson's show was a mistake too. it's just an old debate about cost/benefit of engaging in dialogue with people who are to varying degrees, probably better thought of as your enemies. I don't agree but I'm not really suggesting I definitely know better either, it's just a tension I guess?

"Centrist" doesn't mean anything other that liberal democrat or neoliberal, in my view. What makes Joe Rogan a libertarian Right-wing or even Alt Right would be his rather conservative and pro-capitalist values, not merely his endorsement of Far Right assholes on crack like McInnes.

It's pretty likely he's just a showman with a level of distant sympathies for Far Right politics (like his relative kicks for McEnanny and Trump) but is making too much money/views to care too much defending those.

... I think you clarified that you're from the US? since you seem really confused about what those words mean? Literally all of those positions you listed require one to have "pro-capitalist values".

But hey, I'm guessing this discussion will quickly deteriorate from here! lol

What have you got against centrist hippies? Did your girlfriend at hìghschool drop you for the dope smoking guru dude and go and live in a commune with him?
Deteriorate!? Passions precede politics I'll have you know!

I'm a hippy so that's all in good fun, not a serious term anyway. Centrism on the other hand ... DEADLY SERIOUS unforgivable! Wouldnt even touch the brakes or piss on the flames!!!

You're joking right hahahaa? How hippies were actually bourgeois suburbanites mostly rebelling against the fashion codes, sexual repressive Christian morality and the illegality of marijuana, oh I forgot, the Vietnam War, but that was an afterthought PR move to give their movement some unselfish and less hedonistic sway in the eyes of the public. Hippies evolved into the Gates, Branstons and other millions of capitalist entrepreneurs and statists, central to the maintenance of Carter, Reagan and Clinton power. Hahaa, excellent joke dude!

They were sheep following a Utopian socialist dream and FAILED thankgod!

Glad you don’t sink to useless generalizations that support your ideological pseudo radicalism

I'm anti-ideology, if you'd described my position as -- making broad descriptions that support a nihilistic non-radicalism-- I would accept that.

  1. signal is end-to-end encrypted.
  2. phone number requirement will soon be no longer.
  3. moxie didn't endorse or validate or forgive rogan or his views or associations. he introduced anti-authoritarian and anarchist ideas in a way that was not immediately shut down by an overly aggressive and ignorant rogan. in fact, moxie planted many seeds during that interview.
  4. all these apps and the devices they run on are part of an apocalyptic death march for the planet and the slaves involved in their manufacture and use. telegram or matrix will not protect you or make you more secure.
  5. destroy your devices and the illusion of secure and private and "responsible" technology—consumption. or don't.

fair enough although you're taking some liberties with # 3. It's pretty hard to go on a guy's show without "validating" him at least a little lol

do you validate child slave labor by using phones/computers? how far removed until it's not validation? does your validation or non-validation matter or in any way affect the existence or perpetuation on child slave labor?

oh I didn't realize not going on joe rogan's show was the difference between abject poverty for this person!!! are the times so hard for tech folks too? hang on, I'll need a few minutes to cry it out here. bear with me :'(

2x reasons to not use it (shortened version of

1 - Signal requires a phone number to register. For most users, this will be a mobile phone number - encouraging people to use the cellular network is very bad, since it enables surveillance and location tracking. This basic premise alone makes Signal highly problematic from the start.

2 - Even if you use a landline number for Signal and avoid the cellular network entirely (which is possible), you have to disclose private information (namely the number), which then allows your account to be identified and linked to you.

3 - Regardless of which number you use to register Signal, you will have to enter a 6-digit code to activate your account. This code is sent to the provided number over the normal phone network...

4 - Signal is mainly a smartphone app - the desktop client functions merely as an appendage and requires the user to scan an on-screen QR code to link it to the phone app.

5 - Key management with Signal is very difficult, even for advanced users.

6 - Signal's advertisement overly focuses on its end-to-end-encryption features and claims "Privacy that fits in your pocket", while the equally important aspect of endpoint security is usually dropped under the table.e effort and allows the circumvention even of properly implemented encryption.

7 - Signal's infrastructure is highly centralised - its servers are located in the United States and Open Whisper Systems opposes any federation.

8 - Signal is partly funded by the Open Technology Fund, a U.S. Government program.

9 - Signal also has many other quirks, from the shady practices of its main developer Moxie Marlinspike, over the built-in needless disclosure of the fact that you are using Signal to your contacts, to the strangely prioritized implementation of giphy, while more urgent features are neglected.

10 - The final problem with Signal is that it would be very easy to mitigate many of the problems above.

make a better version and we'll consider it. Otherwise, you're a fucking troll and moxie is just working hard to help all of us.

for free.

Okay. Prove it.

Better version than what... the former article? I couldn't post it fully as per Anews word-count limit. Duh. The link's been posted twice for those who wanna read it fully.

"destroy your devices and the illusion of secure and private and "responsible" technology—consumption. or don't."

Usual shitty anti-privacy argument. "lol idiots... The internet is not safe anyways, it'll never be, because it's rUn bY Teh StAte! So fucking put your entire life on Fedbook and STFU!"

you're taking a bad faith leap to derive that snark from that quote. it's not at all what the quote was saying. it's simply saying "don't kid yourself.." not, "jUsT usE FaCEbOok," dumb dumb.

All this STRESS inducing paranoia, WHAT HAVE YOU GOT TO HIDE?
Its sooo good being an autonomous individualist who just gets their own shit dealt with out in the open and hiding nothing, just being straight up an anarch who has total control of themselves and the world around them, without secrets, sooo damn freeeeeeeee!

Just listened to this...

1. I wish he would have articulated his point about extractivism and the cause of destruction to Nature, he kept bringing it up but never fully going into it, while the host seemed to want to "ethically destroy nature" by making it in America

2. I also wish he would have pushed back against the way the host kept saying only the Right was discriminated against on social media, while we can say there is a left-bias in the way most people define morals into the left-right political spectrum, I think he started to say how these objectives truths don't exist, but he could have brought up how the left will get banned as well for breaking the rules. it seems the rights and this hosts only focus was on breaking rules as it pertains to say Trans issues while the left get banned for being violent or threatening

at the end of the day, these tech companies will go with the popular thought to grow their power. if the popular thought aligned with so-called right-leaning people that is how the bias would go, they want money and power and they will virtue signal to get it

He's a bellwether counterculture guy. If anything he should be an indication of how much left wing and non right wing ideology as a whole are NOT LONGER countercultural. The only people who should really have a problem with him are the institutional leftist IDpol woketards who are not exactly a help to anarchism and anarchy going forward.

Anna Khachiyan has a more correct view on him then these idiots. He's actually a largely likeable guy if you don't look at the world in an ideological tribal elective lens.

you idiot. did you not even read the article you posted? moxie has nothing to do with this “advanced technique” that can “decode” a signal message on an UNLOCKED android device. it would have been easier to just open the signal app on the unlocked device and read the messages, maybe look at some pics or post some shit on tiktok or whatever.

omg maybe android is the real snitch!!!!!’


"Cellebrite’s flagship product is the UFED (Universal Forensic Extraction Device), a system that allows authorities to UNLOCK and access the data of any phone in their possession. Another product it offers is the Physical Analyzer, which helps organize and process data lifted from the phone."

"In an earlier, now deleted, version of the blog post, the company went as far as to say: “Decrypting Signal messages and attachments was not an easy task. It required extensive research on many different fronts to create new capabilities from scratch. At Cellebrite, however, finding new ways to help those who make our world a safer place is what we’re dedicated to doing every day.”

"Following recent reports in Haaretz that the company’s technology was being used by Chinese officials to spy on pro-democracy activists in Hong Kong, Cellebrite announced it would no longer provide services to China or police forces in the Chinese administrative region. "

"The initial post, which was stored on the Internet Archive, also included a detailed explanation of how Cellebrite “cracked the code”: by reviewing Signal’s own open source protocol and using it against it. The company noted in the deleted blog post that “because [Signal] encrypts virtually all its metadata to protect its users, efforts have been put forward by legal authorities to require developers of encrypted software to enable a ‘backdoor’ that makes it possible for them to access people’s data. Until such agreements are reached, Cellebrite continues to work diligently with law enforcement to enable agencies to decrypt and decode data from the Signal app.”

Now eat that, you tooool! huh-huh-huuuh...

This invalidates the PR denial posted on nerdy sites (already have read those, btw, yeeeeess...) saying that "no, Signal wasn't cracked". Well, yeah, it was, you fucking dick.

This is total damage controlling put up by corporate/government shills, in order to avoid nothing else but waves of lawsuits against either or both companies involved, and to likely also save the face of Israeli intel agencies.

you utterly flaccid haaretz fluffer runner up, nowhere is Moxie the “ cybersnitch” in any of these completely fabricated stories. signal was not cracked you apartheid state propaganda outlet defender. back to minecraft with your useless fall boner!

Nice fake ghetto slang and all that, boojie college kid. If "JEW APARTHEEEEID" source (that actually published an article that casts a shadow on an Israeli intel contractor.... brilliant boy) irritates you, then here's for your snowflake mental comforts, an article that goes in all the juicy tech details of the exploit:

None of these sources say Moxie is a snitch or even complicit, I am the one saying that. Coz the shady dude has a record of blatant denial of his app major security problems as explained through comments above. So goes for his apparent lack of response to this new disclosure that everyone using Signal and the Signal Protocol is now potentially compromised.

Admit it. I beat u.

Now go up to your room playing what you play best, Snitchcraft.

look here, boomer spook. moxie addressed the fabricated pieces the moment they published and then got taken down because they were boastful utter bullshit. keep checking cry to your channer friends that you got played.

Do you like working propaganda for the enemies of privacy? Are there good benefits? The snowflakes will never see you coming. Good job.

what ghetto you from @00:06? sesame street?

imagine being dumb enough to use a smart phone and think anything is secure.

"imagine being dumb enough to use a smart phone and think anything is secure."

yes, yes, and YES.

"omg maybe android is the real snitch!!!!!"

fucking DUH!!! the "smart" in every smart device should be translated as: designed for surveillance.

Android AOSP is an open source system with some significant security features such as SELinux, sandboxing and full-disk LUKS encryption. LineageOS gives better user control on the device and removes some remaining snitchy anti-features.

Smart phones in general are pocket snitches. Hardware backdoors and locks is where it's at, because that's an aspect programmers can hardly tackle. Many smart phones just can't have the bootloader unlocked regardless of the motherboards compatibility with other Android versions, you gotta change the damn memory chip for this.

iPhones/iOS are the biggest snitches, and they hardly can be modified by programmers. There's a several years old love story between the Chinese State and Apple.

Any encrypted system is vulnerable when it’s unlocked otherwise it is completely unusable. You can’t be this stupid.

I gotta undo this.

I shouldn't have called Moxie a "Cybersnitch". Not because that can't possibly be true, but because the only ground for this claim is dumb, weak and incoherent. If Moxie's a wolf in sheep clothing, here I'm just helping him save his face by making a fool of myself.

My goal was only to bring this news to this site and its visitors' attention so they can read and research on it, and make their own opinions.

Add new comment