Submitted anonymously
on Areïon's Warlike, Howling, Pure and Invecchiare Selvatico's tedious maligning
I read Areïon's Warlike, Howling, Pure along with Idris Robinson's introduction feverishly after receiving my copy. I forced myself to put it down between chapters, both to savor the enjoyable and erudite prose, but also as necessary to situate the vast and complex subject matter: millennia of spirited uprising spread across the world. In his dismissive and snide review of the book, "Millenarian Insurrectionary Hail Marianism", Invecchiare Selvatico admits that W,H,P delivers "many important and interesting micro-histories" but still laments that the book "comes regrettably from the otherwise provocative Contagion Press." If nothing else, his screed proves this title's provocation too. It sure provoked Selvatico, though not to greatness. He accuses Areïon of writing "all-too predictable chest-beating bombastic nonsense." While Areïon undoubtedly delivers in a style of anarcho-maximalism throughout his wholly unique book, what's truly predictable is Selvatico's response. For a book he calls "uninteresting," he devotes a great deal of energy. He spends most of the text wrestling with his personal strawman of insurrectionary anarchism (a Spook, for the Stirnerites reading along) but ultimately his vitriol fails in its attempt to temper Areïon's fire. After all the bloviating, a few things remain at stake and warrant clarification: anarchy, animism, martyrdom (and some troubling comments on race).
ANARCHY
Selvatico takes great offense that Areïon articulates a unique vision of anarchy, and that this vision differs from his own. He bristles at Areïon for "defining anarchy for us" and yet laces his text with simple formulations about what anarchy is and is not. "Anarchy is neither pious nor evangelical. It is heretical and dispersed." I've known many pious anarchists, and I'm sure you have too. I certainly, and regrettably have encountered many who proseletyze as well. These ways of being may not hold up to Selvatico's Ideal, but to pretend they aren't part of the anarchist tradition is an ahistorical and extremely narrow view. I too adore anarchy's tendency toward the heretical and dispersed. These qualities are only possible because every anarchist has a personal relationship to anarchy. These singular relationships lead to divergent understandings, and this diffusion makes the beautiful idea so beautiful. If Selvatico simply articulated how his anarchy differs, I would not be penning this retort. But he goes a step further, denying what Areïon knows as anarchy by stating explicitly: "It is not."
Perhaps Selvatico believes that having been "a primary editor and writer for Green Anarchy" or publishing a book through some edgelord publishing house qualifies him to defy the one tried truism (for better or worse) about anarchism: that there are as many definitions of anarchy as there are anarchists. Still the question remains, why? This question becomes even more pronounced when Selvatico concedes the key thrust of Areïon's book:
"For instance, I would agree with Areïon, that anarchy is 'a force within the world—a spirit.' I often describe it this way, yet to call it 'devotional' both traps it and forces us to submit to it, rather than it moving in us. It is not something to serve. It is not something to kill and die for (specifically). It is not a practice or a religion. It is an agent of chaos and freedom that cannot be reified. It is life itself: undefinable, unmolested, unrestricted, uncontrollable...It is not a god. If it were, I could only have a heretical and adversarial relationship with it."
I'll set aside the hypocrisy of defining anarchy as undefinable in an essay continuously arbiting definitions of anarchy; there remains an important mystery in this paradoxical ineffability. A force which defies our attempts to understand or delimit it, but is nonetheless active and affective within the world, would certainly be understood as a powerful spirit by the vast majority of all of our human ancestors. In the mediterranean traditions drawn on by Areïon, it would be termed a daemon, from which Christians derive their moralistic perjorative, demon. Daemon is not a moral term though. It's ambiguity extends beyond good and evil, encompassing a variety of entities. Spirits of the dead, hellbeasts from the underworld, the spirits of the wild, and yes even gods could all rightly be called daemon in Hellenistic parlance. The "God" dismissed by Selvatico is a bludgeon used to flatten the the polymorphic ways that human communities throughout time have experienced the divine, whether Theoi, Orisha, Netjeru, Nkisi, Æsir, Xian, et al. Curious that in his ham-handed effort to tar Areïon's theistic anarchy with the brush of Christian trauma, Selvatico never once mentions the theological underpinning of W,H,P: polytheism - the multiplicity of divergent divine forces with their own desires and agendas (agendas are BAD in Selvatico's morality!) existing in the tumult of the cosmos. This gross omission betrays the critic's ungenerous and disingenuous intent.
As a polytheist, in active conversation and solidarity with other anarchists of other religious persuasions, Areïon does not impose his gods over anyone else, nor does he express any desire to. His is a personal cosmology, interwoven with others. In recent years, exciting and vital efforts at anarcho-religiosity have cohered and in some cases re-emerged with vigor throughout the anarchist galaxy. Anarchists have studied, practiced, and endeavored to articulate liberatory interpretations of Judaism, Islam, Taoism, etc. To deny the anarchy of Jewish, Muslim and Taoist anarchists would be reprehensible. I fondly recall discussing the development of a Muslim anarchist tendency in the Bay Area over tea with Aragorn! and Dot Matrix who asserted then, "we want a world where many different kinds of anarchy are possible!" Granted, these tendencies would shortly come into conflict, but conflict hardly disqualifies the anarcha-plurality.
That Selvatico doesn't extend Areïon this same courtesy is a disgrace, especially for someone who fancies himself a free-thinker. He insists that the rhetorical differences of Areïon's interpretation of anarchy-as-force, "forces us to submit to it, rather than it moving in us." That Selvatico feels a compulsion behind Areïon's words reveals just some of their power (to say nothing of whatever it reveals about Selvatico's impoverished spirit). Submission is absent from W,H,P as is anything which precludes an anarchy "moving [with]in us." I experience flame as felt sensation, and Areïon seemingly does too.
ANIMISM
In light of Selvatico's reductive cosmology, I cannot overemphasize the absurdity of him describing Areïon's conception of animism as 'thin'. While the former waxes poetic about his own animistic approach, dirty hands and all, Areïon's exhibits a fullness far exceeding its slender container. It's admirable that Selvatico finds his spirituality in raw engagement with the wild world, truly. But where do the dead figure in his animism? What of those unruly yet omnipresent daemones irreducible to this rock or that river? For whatever good anthropological approaches will do us here, animism cannot be separated from ancestor veneration, nor from awe for the vast and indomitable forces of creation. He accuses Areïon of abstraction for his reliance on story, but play with story is precisely the stuff of animist engagement with the world. To excise all this from animism empties it of precisely what we likely need to combat the pervasive spiritual emptiness which Selvatico (twice) emphasizes that he sees alongside Areïon and Idris. Selvatico insists his is a spirituality of place, but the gods and the dead and our stories of them are more woven into place than whatever he does upon the land some piece of paper says is his. What of the bones and songs in earth? He gives us a glimpse:
"My spirituality feels unique and grounded in direct organic relations, not myopic thrusts of mythological chest-pumping warrior jiz. My shared spirituality feels intimate and penetrating, not rhetorical and opportunistic. My spirituality is the daily living of getting dirty. It is not removed, epically-driven, and merely metaphorically earthen. In my life, balancing and playing with belief, cynicism, uncertainty, and enchantment is essential in the way I relate to spirituality and is fundamentally at odds with any sort of Holy War."
The insistence on a sedentary spirituality, against that of wanderers is a fascinating turn from one of the primary purveyors of primitivist thought. Even more intriguing, the libidinal overlay! It's all penetration, dirty even, but no thrust or release. It calls to mind the masters of Taoist sexual alchemy who retain their orgasmic energy, only cumming for procreation. But it also evokes the mythic Mormon practice of "soaking it." Dear Selvatico, which is your kink? As for warrior jiz, don't knock it 'til you've tried it!
With his own style of masculine bravado, Selvatico declares: "I’ll defend myself and our people and place on this earth to my last drop of blood..." I applaud his commitment to defending the places and relationships wherein he finds spirit. For myself, I'd name those things holy, following the anarchic visionary Blake: "for everything that lives is holy, life delights in life!" If one fights to the death to defend these delights, could that not rightly be called both holy and war?
This understanding is a precondition of meaningful engagement or solidarity with, for example, the countless efforts by indigenous people around the globe to defend the sacred. Without the sacred, we've only empty allyship or worse, ecology. In context of such a disenchanted view, Selvatico's advocacy of a sort of tribalism is troubling to say the least, which brings us alas to...
RACE
The reductive approach Selvatico displays thoughout his entire review is applied heapingly to Areïon's critique of whiteness. "'Whiteness' and 'anti-blackness' vs freedom and liberation... If only it were all so simple. If only there were a good and bad, right and wrong, victim and oppressor." Did you notice the slippage from Whiteness (defined by Areïon as an egregore and as spiritual severance from ancestry [wait, which NPR program was that?]) to the Individual in Selvatico's petty concern that he or another may be deemed an oppressor? W,H,P is quite nuanced in its appraisal of the racial order, while Selvatico's entire treatment amounts to a thinly veiled anxiety about some sort of reverse racism. You won't hear Areïon's schema on the radio, but variants of Selvatico's take can be found by the thousands daily on the bleakest corners of Twitter/X. He's playing himself with this one. Selvatico describes his lifeway as "familiar and tribal and anarchistic, not some vague movement of the oppressed holding people accountable for previous sins carried down from generation to generation." Ignoring that Areïon's proposals are anything but vague, Selvatico does himself (and his descendants) a tremendous disservice by so hastily dismissing the very real generational traumas (many of which are racialized) inscribed on us by this nightmare society. Those who practice earth-based spiritualities while ignoring the dead-in-the-earth do so at their own peril.
The creeping sensation that Selvatico is taking this a little too personally is compounded when he says, "Areïon has provided a volatile and blood-thirsty religious component for the knuckle-headed, bruit, obtuse, and unsophisticated ideas and actions of Antifa..." If he was triggered by Areïon's anti-racism, it may have something to do with his aside that, "my black sun and theirs seem to mean very different things, but that is another story."
Selvatico, tell us the story! Does your sun burn at midnight in the underworld? Perhaps the sol niger of the alchemists? Or is it that twelve-armed appropriation forged at Wewelsburg Castle to advance the occult arts of domination? This may be the true core of the disagreement here.
Absent an answer, I'll treat Selvatico better than he does Areïon; resisting the impulse to read his words in the worst way possible, however enticing the dogwhistles! Still, his willful ignorance of the racial regime of this doomed empire, and of the ancient and more recent revolts against it, goes pretty far to explain the ultimate misunderstanding of his position:
MARTYRDOM
Again, an anarchist approach which makes space for martyrdom may not be his cup of tea, but to deny its place in the tradition is ahistorical at best, and racist at worst. Anarchists have always afforded a special place to our dead, and Areïon does a thorough job of demonstrating this. Besides the classical examples, contemporary anarchists continue to deepen and refine our understandings by exposure and complicity with other movements, especially the Kurdish and Palestinian liberation struggles. The Palestinians insist that all those massacred by the machinations of empire, not only armed combatants, qualify as martyrs. Understanding the differences between our movements is important of course, but there is strength in applying other lenses. When I think of my fallen beloveds, first to mind are those suicided by our living hell (forgive me if naming it hellworld makes me a moralist), of those burned up at dance parties, ravaged by cancers, overdosed on opiates, and slain by the mundane meatgrinder of vehicular travel. Our dead weigh on our present, and join us as we strive to live free. But naturally Selvatico applies his frankly exhausting brand of reduction to this too, consistently conflating Areïon's ancestral methodology with the specter of armed struggle - something the latter never disavows, but to which his spiritism is irreducible.
Selvatico tells us that "if this were a random wing-nut, or even a cute little cult, I could find some amusement in it all. The author of this book, however, is not some detached actor, but a long-term anarchist who is part of a developing sphere of theory and practice, which, for me, feels significantly different." He makes other references throughout the text to "this particular camp," by which he means variously insurrectionary anarchists, the proponents of "combative anarchy", or simply anarchists of action. He isn't wrong that "in times of deep desperation, millenarian, apocalyptic, and martyr-fueled ideas and actions are not uncommon," and he is even correct to evoke the "cautionary lessons" for these for anarchists. But again, he protests too much.
The path of the guerrilla is not for everyone. Word and deed are bound up together, and I myself am better with a pen than with a gun. I get it. We live in scary times, Selvatico. And still, I see friends and comrades consistently coming to remarkably similar conclusions of late (and from very diverse positions). Their road is a fraught one and they'll need every blessing upon it. Things likely only get more dire from here. We cannot and should not all take up arms, but some already have, and many more certainly will in the days to come. When they do, whatever my personal analysis and risk-calculations, I will be grateful for Areïon's attentat here (as well as Idris'"more troubled and troubling" lines) against the spiritual emptiness which even a cynic (though he's no Diogenes!) like Selvatico deems "a colossal problem." Against that colossus, we need fire-starters and ritual, sabotage and poetry.
Free lives amidst the death of This World will take everything we can muster: love, spirit, tenacity, critique, joy, and, yes, perhaps even "literal sacrifices to the gods." Diane di Prima (sorry, not sorry) advised decades ago "to seek help in the realms we have been taught to think of as mythological," and Areïon offers one way to do just that. Diane also wrote,"NO ONE WAY WORKS, it will take all of us shoving at the thing from all sides to bring it down." Warlike, Howling, Pure is one anarchist's proposal for a passionate existence lived, even unto death, in spite of the void. I look forward to yours, dear readers.
-julius ze/zir
Comments
Opinions 2: Opine Harder
opinionist (not verified) Wed, 08/28/2024 - 16:39
I disagree with your opinions and agree with my own opinions.
Alfredo M. Bonanno
anon (not verified) Wed, 08/28/2024 - 17:22
In reply to Opinions 2: Opine Harder by opinionist (not verified)
Alfredo M. Bonanno
A Eulogy to Opinion
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/alfredo-m-bonanno-a-eulogy-to-o…
I disagree, respectfully
anon (not verified) Wed, 08/28/2024 - 18:21
In reply to Opinions 2: Opine Harder by opinionist (not verified)
I disagree, respectfully
Goody goody: bad writing at
anon (not verified) Thu, 08/29/2024 - 01:00
Goody goody: bad writing at stupefying length.
On martyrdom
anon (not verified) Thu, 08/29/2024 - 05:48
I think it was explained quite simply & well in "Or Just Say Nothing: A Response to CrimethInc.'s Initial Statement on Aaron Bushnell".
"The martyrs constitute a force in the present for all who live and continue to struggle." https://anarchistnews.org/content/or-just-say-nothing-response-crimethi…
If people want to make the ending of their own lives something to motivate those who live on, I don't see any reason to deny them that - it's certainly no less legitimate than any other reason one would choose to stop living. For me, this is quite different than insisting people must give their lives to struggle, as a kind of coercion.
That said, I think there are better arguments against martyrdom than the Outlet's worry about un-American ethical systems contaminating the anarchist subculture, specifically Ignatius's "No More Martyrs: On Death, Dying, and the Courage it Takes to Live". https://archive.org/details/zines-anarchism/Fist_Full_of_Concrete-scree…
I think Ignatius's piece can still be criticized however. Just want to add some layers to this discussion. For example, I don't think that saying they're only speaking to the US context is a justification for not engaging with conceptions of martyrdom from Palestinian & Kurdish contexts, which influence US anarchist subculture, or even just in anarchist history. I don't think they intended it to "justify" not talking about that, but the silence is worth noting.
All of this is just to give some background to the discussion about martyrs in the book being debated here beyond the comments of the reviewers.
In long past days, anarchists
Rabbit (not verified) Thu, 08/29/2024 - 06:49
In reply to On martyrdom by anon (not verified)
In long past days, anarchists like Lucy and Albert Parsons, Ricardo Flores Magón and Peter Kropotkin sometimes used the term "martyr" to refer to people killed by the state (Louis Riel and the Haymarket martyrs for instance). Not at all to judge people who choose to end their own lives, I'm just pointing out that historically, anarchists also used the term, and they used it to refer to victims of state repression (and possible more as well). Now you could respond, Albert Parsons and Louis Riel didn't flee "justice", and that would be true, and so in that sense they accepted their own probable death at the hands of the state. Worth thinking about rather than just dismissing, in my view.
https://anarchistnews.org
Zhachev Thu, 08/29/2024 - 07:00
In reply to In long past days, anarchists by Rabbit (not verified)
https://anarchistnews.org/content/please-stop-demonizing-militancy-0
the symbolic function of the Martyr..
GEF (not verified) Thu, 08/29/2024 - 08:28
In reply to In long past days, anarchists by Rabbit (not verified)
is at least positive in how it highlighs the underlying brutality and ruthlessness of a regime. But there's many pitfalls to martyrization, like cultist and authoritarian agencies using this pattern to give themselves credit.. and cast a shadow over their own ruthlessness.
Are there things that don't
Rabbit (not verified) Thu, 08/29/2024 - 15:48
In reply to the symbolic function of the Martyr.. by GEF (not verified)
Are there things that don't have pitfalls? Honest question. What isn't susceptible to recuperation, given that even the Situationists were? When people say things like this, or make similar criticisms of something like Land Back, it just seems completely arbitrary and dishonest to me. Double standards for days.
y caint we b frens
anon (not verified) Thu, 08/29/2024 - 06:51
"I fondly recall discussing the development of a Muslim anarchist tendency in the Bay Area over tea with Aragorn! and Dot Matrix who asserted then, "we want a world where many different kinds of anarchy are possible!"
Speaking of tea, I just spewed mine.
Look, I don't want to be that bitch in the comments starting shit unconstructively, but anyone who's really known Dot Matrix! and their crew afk knows that if you don't end up working for thecollective they make sure you're forced to work against them. I'm not saying they don't want many different anarchies or that they're not good people to their friends. I'm not a communist trying to sing kumbaya. But these people make anyone who challenges them their enemy so fast!
Please don't delete this let's talk about it.
theres also a tyranny
anon (not verified) Thu, 08/29/2024 - 06:56
In reply to y caint we b frens by anon (not verified)
theres also a tyranny/hierarchy of cool/fun/attractive/unbroke people at berkeley bolo that has become a generational practice at this point hope we can talk about it too please thanks love you all
thank you for writing this
anon (not verified) Thu, 08/29/2024 - 07:29
thank you for writing this thoughtful piece. there are several places you could have certainly been less charitable, but your contributions elevate the conversation to a more dignified level for all of us.
"you could have certainly
anon (not verified) Thu, 08/29/2024 - 15:51
In reply to thank you for writing this by anon (not verified)
"you could have certainly been less charitable"
are you serious?
This response is an extremely disingenuous take on what Selvaticco wrote, taking things out of context and assuming far more about them then they did about the author of the book (despite some of Selvaticco’s over-reach and projection at times). I recently read Warlike, Howling, Pure and the review (and now this). I did not care for the book an I do not agree with certain significant parts of the review, but this is a total hit piece, or possibly love letter from a fan of Areion’s, or Areion themself. I am especially disturbed by the not so thinly veiled attempts to call Selvaticco a racist and a fascist. That is fucked up. It kind of seems like what Selvaticco was warning about in their review, when people connect their politics with religion, it doubles down on all of the dynamics at play, including and especially, the worst.
"your contributions elevate the conversation to a more dignified level for all of us."
again, seriously, what a undeserving shmooze job here.
this comment a total hit
anon (not verified) Thu, 08/29/2024 - 16:34
In reply to "you could have certainly by anon (not verified)
this comment a total hit piece, or possibly love letter from a fan of Selvatico’s, or Selvatico themself.
Julius ze/zir is completely
anon (not verified) Thu, 08/29/2024 - 17:09
In reply to "you could have certainly by anon (not verified)
Julius ze/zir is completely misrepresenting Selvatico’s perfectly benign references to the black sun, reverse racism, antifa thugs and Charles Manson. To read into these things is disingenuous and totally not what Selvatico intended! But what’s worse: this piece is a not-so-thinly veiled attempt to say that Selvatico doesn’t cum, and is maybe a Mormon. That’s fucked up!
this pearl clutching is wild.
anon (not verified) Thu, 08/29/2024 - 22:28
In reply to "you could have certainly by anon (not verified)
this pearl clutching is wild. IS initiated a debate around race and he got a response that played as rough as he did while still pulling a lot of punches. peak fragility.
THE DARKNESS RESPONDS TO THE POODLE FOR RIMMING THE MOON part 1
Invecchiare Se… (not verified) Fri, 08/30/2024 - 14:33
My first thought was to ignore such a half-assed, ass-kissing (towards Areion), and slanderous (towards myself) response to my review of Warlike, Howling, Pure. “Don’t even bother acknowledging this trash”, “It is the internet, and Anews in particular, what do you expect?”, and “This is a total hit piece, or possibly love letter from a fan of Areion’s, or Areion themself” were some of my friend’s comments. All of this is true, but considering the blatant misrepresentation of my review (see:https://anarchistnews.org/content/millenarian-insurrectionary-hail-mari…) and the actual “dogwhistling” towards me (of which I am accused of) in not too subtle ways, of being a racist and a fascist, I feel I must at least say a few words. I will not go line by line to dispute each falsity and misconstruction, but I will note a few things.
First, as one commenter on this thread already pointed out, this is the kind of ideologically/religiously rigid response I was warning of in my review. When you declare a “Antiracist Holy War”, when you oversimplify the enemy and broadly define your alleys you set up a situation for these types of misleading and dangerous accusations. We have seen it many times through history. Sorry to sound “right-wing”, but witch hunt behavior begins to proliferate. I don’t think this was Areion’s intent in any way. I personally like the author and feel their motivations aren’t for this, but they do set up a scenario for this to happen.
Ok, so the “response”. Well, it is obvious they have a fan-crush with lines like: “I read Areïon's Warlike, Howling, Pure along with Idris Robinson's introduction feverishly after receiving my copy. I forced myself to put it down between chapters, both to savor the enjoyable and erudite prose, but also as necessary to situate the vast and complex subject matter…” Ewe. As commenters like to say here at Anews, “get a room”. This type of praise sets the tone for an agenda-driven “response”.
As far as me calling the book “uninteresting”, maybe that was too strong, but I guess I would say “not all that interesting to me” would be better, and the fact that I “devote a great deal of energy” to the book is misleading. I read it in a day, talked to a few friends about it, and reviewed it in two short afternoon sessions, not that much time. The reason I gave it any time was that that some insurrectionary anarchist circles overlap with mine in various places and I have a certain amount of affinity with it. I have been critical of its trajectory and viewed this book as a concerning turn that warranted some critical attention. Statements like “He spends most of the text wrestling with his personal strawman of insurrectionary anarchism (a Spook, for the Stirnerites reading along) but ultimately his vitriol fails in its attempt to temper Areïon's fire.” in the “response” show that for some, it fell on deaf ears who defend it uncritically.
Then we come to “Selvatico takes great offense that Areïon articulates a unique vision of anarchy, and that this vision differs from his own.” That is not what I take offense to. I “bristle” when any anarchist lays out a clear path and declares “This is the Way.”, especially when it is infused with religiosity and martyrdom. Over and over in my review I state that if this were a personal anarchist take without any motivation for building something larger outside of themselves and their pack, I would discuss this very differently, anyway, read my review, not this trash.
Oh, and a quick side note, to call LBC an “edgelord publishing house” just shows your weak hand. I certainly do not support every publishing decision they made, but overall, in my mind, they were the most important anarchist publisher of the past twenty years.
edgelord publisher
anon (not verified) Fri, 08/30/2024 - 18:11
In reply to THE DARKNESS RESPONDS TO THE POODLE FOR RIMMING THE MOON part 1 by Invecchiare Se… (not verified)
For what it's worth, I am pretty sure Julius was confused about your book's publisher (LBC) vs its distributor mentioned in your piece (Underworld Amusements) and that the "edgelord publisher" comment was, based on that confusion, a reference to UA, not LBC.
Just trying to clear some things up. Now back to the fighting! Or not -- IC and Julius getting a room is cool too ;)
This is correct, was going
julius (not verified) Sat, 08/31/2024 - 00:46
In reply to edgelord publisher by anon (not verified)
This is correct, was going off what's said in Selvatico's bio, should have recognized the LBC design. Love LBC, however edgy.
<3
anon (not verified) Sat, 08/31/2024 - 08:47
In reply to This is correct, was going by julius (not verified)
<3
signed,
the LBC designer :)
"That is not what I take
Julius (not verified) Sat, 08/31/2024 - 01:23
In reply to THE DARKNESS RESPONDS TO THE POODLE FOR RIMMING THE MOON part 1 by Invecchiare Se… (not verified)
"That is not what I take offense to. I “bristle” when any anarchist lays out a clear path and declares “This is the Way.”, especially when it is infused with religiosity and martyrdom. Over and over in my review I state that if this were a personal anarchist take without any motivation for building something larger outside of themselves and their pack, I would discuss this very differently, anyway, read my review, not this trash."
Well, Areïon is a pack-oriented anarchist, so maybe you should have discussed this differently. I didn't say this in my response, but I think it's also worth clarifying, because you bring it up here again as the core of your issue with Areïon. Based on its primacy in the book, its very clear that Chinese traditions are of great importance, personally, to the author. The Way, contextually, is referring to the way as in the Tao, as in the thing which can't be named. This is another case where defaulting to the standard western post-left kneejerk around a word is actually missing a ton of the subtlety of what A is saying here. He explicitly brings in the Tao throughout, by way of UKL's incredible translation. I know, shared reference points seems to be one of your pet peeves, but its really worth reading, and she renders the text in a way that emphasizes that the way cannot be named or clearly defined. In the same way that omitting Areïon's polytheism oversimplifies in an opportunistic (to use your phrase) direction, so does omitting the Taoist current. Being honest about the complexity here would have taken most of the projection out of your review though, and I understand you had an agenda with it.
The version of the Laozi that
abdushares (not verified) Sat, 08/31/2024 - 05:44
In reply to "That is not what I take by Julius (not verified)
The version of the Laozi that Le Guin wrote isn't a translation as much as it's an anarcho-socialist rewrite. Majority of the chapters are just her writing if you compare it with the original Chinese or other widely read versions.
Fun fact, Le Guin is her married name. She was born Ursula Kroeber ("K."), as in Alfred Louis Kroeber, the anthropologist who stuck Ishi, the last of the Yahi people, in a museum/zoo until the end of his days, although Ishi considered him a friend.
Out of all her work, I rarely
abdushares (not verified) Sat, 08/31/2024 - 05:49
In reply to The version of the Laozi that by abdushares (not verified)
Out of all her work, I rarely see "Always Coming Home" mentioned. Folks here would really enjoy that and as your literature anarch, I highly recommend you all read it. The role of her father as an anthropologist and pro-US Indian-white diplomat was not lost on her. She wants us to reconnect to plant and animal life wherever we find ourselves, in addition to the sun, forest, river, fog, and mountains.
Always coming home is my fav
anon (not verified) Sat, 08/31/2024 - 07:38
In reply to Out of all her work, I rarely by abdushares (not verified)
Always coming home is my fav too, but it seems less overtly didactic, so those goal-oriented types aren't always gonna have time to fit its length and girth in to their busy meeting schedules. Its fun meeting here at the confluence of several different branches of thought-patterns!
It is somewhat understood
owlspeaks (not verified) Sat, 08/31/2024 - 11:20
In reply to "That is not what I take by Julius (not verified)
It is somewhat understood that “The Way” Areïon is pointing to is “the way” as in the Tao, but combined with the rest of the book, its politics, the antiracist holy war, etc, it is a gross (possibly intentional) misuse. it is a cop out to hide behind “This is another case where defaulting to the standard western post-left kneejerk around a word is actually missing a ton of the subtlety of what A is saying here.” It was so subtle that is was not there. if anarchists are going to use lame phases like “This is the Way”, it is probably best to ditch the supposed subtly.
THE DARKNESS RESPONDS TO THE POODLE FOR RIMMING THE MOON PART 2
Invecchiare Se… (not verified) Fri, 08/30/2024 - 14:35
Also, I never said Areïon wanted to “impose his gods over anyone else”, I don’t care who his gods are, but he does appear to situate anarchy in his gods to create a tendency. How he wants to use his gods becomes more of the problem in my mind. Also, I don’t have much more use for polytheism than monotheism, they are both abstractions and distancing from the direct experience, but that is just my situation. Sure, I can relate more to polytheism, but again, it is not my spirituality, which I certainly do not view as a “reductive cosmology” and I definitely do not have an “impoverished spirit”, unless of course you mean, one not in accordance to your beliefs.
Then, “It's admirable that Selvatico finds his spirituality in raw engagement with the wild world, truly. But where do the dead figure in his animism?” Not your problem is it? I will not argue about this here. My spirituality is personal and not on display or used as a weapon in some epic war. I have a deep spiritual presence that I choose to not use for propagandistic purposes. I have grown quite cynical of those who endlessly propagandize and now add in spirituality as a new tool in their toolbox. I don’t think this is the case with Areïon specifically, but I am suspicious of some insurrectionary anarchists who now seem to use animism (a perspective I have great fondness for and affinity with) this way. I wrote much about this recently in “Under Our Feet, Not Over Our Heads” in OAK #6. Again, my problem wasn’t with Areïon’s spirituality, but his religiosity.
My biggest problem was in the section titled “RACE”. Again, I am accused of being “reductive” (is this another trending and overused term these days like “resentment”? Don’t worry, I know what they mean, no need to define them again here…). What a con job this section is. What a misleading attempt to paint me as the enemy. Over and over they misrepresent my words. For instance, I never said that I am concerned that I or another “may be deemed an oppressor”, just that the metrics of determining such things are often over-simplified, ideological, and weaponized. Or, “W,H,P is quite nuanced in its appraisal of the racial order, while Selvatico's entire treatment amounts to a thinly veiled anxiety about some sort of reverse racism.” What a crock of shit. I don’t know how “nuanced” Areïon was or wasn’t, it did seem to fall into line with contemporary academic norms and in my mind opens the door for very over-simplistic action, but I certainly have never used the concept of “reverse racism” in any way. Don’t put words in my mouth or I will spit them in your face mixed with my poisonous venom, especially if you trow me in with “the thousands daily on the bleakest corners of Twitter/X.”. Never been there, so I guess you would be the expert here…
And, “Selvatico does himself (and his descendants) a tremendous disservice by so hastily dismissing the very real generational traumas”. Again, don’t worry about me or my descendants, they are not your concern, unless, of course, you are trying to use them to build a movement of the dispossessed.
THE DARKNESS RESPONDS TO THE POODLE FOR RIMMING THE MOON PART 3
Invecchiare Se… (not verified) Fri, 08/30/2024 - 14:36
But this: “The creeping sensation that Selvatico is taking this a little too personally is compounded when he says, "Areïon has provided a volatile and blood-thirsty religious component for the knuckle-headed, bruit, obtuse, and unsophisticated ideas and actions of Antifa..." If he was triggered by Areïon's anti-racism, it may have something to do with his aside that, "my black sun and theirs seem to mean very different things, but that is another story” … Selvatico, tell us the story! Does your sun burn at midnight in the underworld? Perhaps the sol niger of the alchemists? Or is it that twelve-armed appropriation forged at Wewelsburg Castle to advance the occult arts of domination? This may be the true core of the disagreement here….Absent an answer, I'll treat Selvatico better than he does Areïon; resisting the impulse to read his words in the worst way possible, however enticing the dogwhistles! Still, his willful ignorance of the racial regime of this doomed empire, and of the ancient and more recent revolts against it, goes pretty far to explain the ultimate misunderstanding of his position”
This comes very close to a declaration of war for me! You are treading on some very thin ice here. Better watch yer step. This type of projection and accusation is exactly what I was getting at, and you demonstrate it so well. You are a case study for the religious-infused over-simplistic politics of Antifa, and frankly, most anarchists these days.
For the record, I brought up the black sun in my review, a symbol that I greatly appreciate and learn from, because Areion uses it in their book as a metaphor for their more moralistic-leaning cause, one I have series questions about, not in general, but in specifics. I do not use the black sun in metaphorical ways to represent, but again, as a teacher, that is the difference I was referring to. My black sun is not exactly the “Sol niger, the first stage of the alchemical magnum opus”. It is beyond over-simplified description, it is personal and experiential, and it is influenced by a wide-ranging cultural expression of the concept from around the globe. For me, it has absolutely no relation to the “runic symbol inlaid into the floor of the Hall of the Supreme SS Leaders in the North Tower of Wewelsburg Castle in Northern Westphalia, Germany”. It is very interesting and opportunistic, and even not very surprising that julius ze/zir would jump to this weaponized and slandering take. And, of course, they use the old dishonest trick of saying that they aren’t actually saying it, but wink wink, throw the mud and run. About what I would expect.
I won’t even bother address the next subject in the response, martyrdom. I cover it thoroughly in my review, and by now, I have exhausted my energy for this pathetic “response” and it is clear that they are a soldier in a war, not a free agent in the world.
How is this talk about your
anon (not verified) Fri, 08/30/2024 - 18:28
In reply to THE DARKNESS RESPONDS TO THE POODLE FOR RIMMING THE MOON PART 3 by Invecchiare Se… (not verified)
How is this talk about your personal black sun any different than talking about a swastika being "personal and experiential, and it is influenced by a wide-ranging cultural expression of the concept from around the globe"? Doesn't it also have a history and significance beyond what Germans have used it for? Or is that exactly your point, that all such symbols are best understood as "experiential" regardless of their most significant interpretation?
My personal swastika stands
anon (not verified) Fri, 08/30/2024 - 18:38
In reply to How is this talk about your by anon (not verified)
My personal swastika stands for good food and friends--to laugh and love and live my Stirneresq uniqueness, and has nothing to do with what some Germans in the 40s used it for. It's an ancient symbol of love, man.
Because the black sun has
anon (not verified) Fri, 08/30/2024 - 18:44
In reply to How is this talk about your by anon (not verified)
Because the black sun has nothing to do with the Nazis. It was not used by them at all. The association is imaginary, based entirely on things made up by conspiracy fans and black magicians in the 1990s and 2000s.
Sorry, brah. Neo-nazis own
anon (not verified) Fri, 08/30/2024 - 18:50
In reply to Because the black sun has by anon (not verified)
Sorry, brah. Neo-nazis own the black sun now. Just like the Nazis owned the swastika ever since they started using it. Get a coverup.
As long as I keep my pants on
anon (not verified) Fri, 08/30/2024 - 19:37
In reply to Sorry, brah. Neo-nazis own by anon (not verified)
As long as I keep my pants on it is covered up. What’s your prob?
From the book Black Sun by Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke
anon (not verified) Sat, 08/31/2024 - 05:01
In reply to Because the black sun has by anon (not verified)
"it was Himmler’s castle, the Wewelsburg, which established the reputation of the SS as an esoteric chivalrous order. During the electoral campaign of early 1933, Himmler had traveled through Westphalia, “the land of Hermann and Widukind,” and was deeply impressed by the mythical atmosphere of the Teutoburger Forest. Ever inspired by romantic medieval models, he began to think of acquiring a castle in this region for SS purposes. The Wewelsburg near Paderborn was duly taken over by the SS in August 1934. It began its career as a museum and SS officers’ college for ideological education within the Race and Settlement Main Office, but was then placed under the direct control of the Reichsführer-SS Personal Staff in February 1935. This transfer reflected Himmler’s new idea for making the Wewelsburg into an SS-order castle, comparable to the Marienburg Castle of the medieval Teutonic Knights in Prussia. During the late 1930s Himmler and the castle commandant, Manfred von Knobbelsdorff, held pagan wedding ceremonies at the Wewelsburg for SS officers and their brides and organized spring, harvest and solstice festivals for the garrison and the village. Himmler’s plans became increasingly ambitious. The massive north tower of the castle was enlarged with labor from a nearby purpose-built concentration camp. Here, in the large circular upper hall surmounted by a domed cupola, were to hang the coats-of-arms of dead SS-Gruppenführer, while its marble floor was decorated with a large sun wheel composed of twelve zigzag sig-runes. In the vault below twelve pedestals flanked the interior wall at regular intervals around a paved circular recess on the stone floor."
Seems like just a little before the 1990s to me.
"From the 1970s onward, right-wing extremists began to repackage the old ideology of Aryan racism, elitism and force in new cultic guises involving esotericism and Eastern religions. In Austria and Germany, the former SS man Wilhelm Landig revived the ariosophical mythology of Thule, the supposed polar homeland of the ancient Aryans. He coined the idea of the Black Sun, a substitute swastika and mystical source of energy capable of regenerating the Aryan race. He popularized esoteric ideas current among the pre-Nazi völkisch movement and the SS relating to Atlantis, the World Ice Theory, prehistoric floods and secret racial doctrines from Tibet. He also drew attention to Nazi interest in the medieval Cathars and Grail traditions as an alternative Germanic religion of dualist heresy."
Same goes for the intentional neo-nazi revival.
Now tell me about “morning of
anon (not verified) Sun, 09/01/2024 - 17:58
In reply to From the book Black Sun by Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke by anon (not verified)
Now tell me about “morning of the magicians”
I know the book... but where
anon (not verified) Tue, 09/03/2024 - 09:43
In reply to Now tell me about “morning of by anon (not verified)
I know the book... but where are you going with this?
Morning of thr Magicians also is connected to a dog shit occuktist Far Right, a '60s regurgitation of Thule Society stuff.
Huh, strange. I’d swear the
anon (not verified) Sun, 09/01/2024 - 19:39
In reply to From the book Black Sun by Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke by anon (not verified)
Huh, strange. I’d swear the first quote says sun wheel, while the second discusses Landig, who wrote the novel that originated the concept of the black sun, published in…. Wait for it… 1991. Yes I’m sure the told his friends his theories about this at their creepy circle jerks, going back years. But it wasn’t until later that he was able to popularize it. He’s also likely the source of the Nazi arctic ufo tales. Does your quote prove that the nazis really had a hollow earth base?
That quote doesn't prove
anon (not verified) Tue, 09/03/2024 - 09:57
In reply to Huh, strange. I’d swear the by anon (not verified)
That quote doesn't prove anything other than the Nazi occultists believing in this Hollow Earth/Hyperborea crap. Believe me... it's pretty wild sci-fi to gaze at, but the 30 days-long Nazi Antartic expedition was unfruitful at best and there's plenty of evidence most of them just went to South America instead after they got beaten.
Selvatico- The section you
Julius (not verified) Sat, 08/31/2024 - 01:07
In reply to THE DARKNESS RESPONDS TO THE POODLE FOR RIMMING THE MOON PART 3 by Invecchiare Se… (not verified)
Selvatico- The section you call close to a declaration of war was a genuine question about what is actually the most fascinating (to me) part of your review, and I'm glad for your answer. I presumed you were open to talking about it, given you included it in your text. You'll notice I gave options and suspended judgement pending your response. How that's "running away" is beyond me. Any simplistic antifa whatever politics you're responding to are once again a projection, not unlike the way you read W,H,P. (I appreciate you conceding that, btw.) You say a few times in the comments above that you often elaborated off his words to go after a broader tendency. Issuing threats because another walks through a door you open in your text is... not a good look. It illustrates the fragility talked about elsewhere in this comment section. My review doesn't frame things in terms of friends and enemies. If you'd like to, that's your choice, but I promise this isn't the fight you want. Whatever gets you off though.
"issuing threats"
abdushares (not verified) Sat, 08/31/2024 - 06:05
In reply to Selvatico- The section you by Julius (not verified)
"issuing threats"
Can we stop being a bunch of fragile fucking Karens who sound like they're reviewing notes before a trip to the county magistrate's office? When one anarch says to another "them is fighting words" that is NOT a threat but a clear illustration of boundaries and a declaration of intent. If we really are the free spirits we claim to be, rather than yelp and whimper about threats, perhaps as individuals we can develop greater antifragile capacity and fierceness in our relationships, a robustness that feels desperately needed in the USA scene. It's okay to be messy about this stuff to a point (ending before abuse).
damn. i’d be pissed too. yes,
owlspeaks (not verified) Sat, 08/31/2024 - 11:27
In reply to Selvatico- The section you by Julius (not verified)
damn. i’d be pissed too. yes, “The Darkness Criticizes The Wolf For Howling At The Moon” is a great title, but i’m pretty certain it was not original, and i don’t think very applicable. i would agree with some of the previous posts that the response reads like a passive aggressive ass licking of the book’s author and a dangerously dishonest painting of Selvatico and their review, despite very transparent wordplay of “suspended judgement pending your [Selvatico’s] response”. talk about blowing some dogwhistles, I can still hear the ringing in my ears. this type of blatantly false racist and fascist-jacketing is what the internet is great at and something that is sure to be a major part of any antiracist holy war. the new inquisition has begun! nonbelievers, heretics, and those with any questions, concerns or criticisms up against the wall, the blood will flow in the name of our gods, the martyred, and anarchy!!!
so julius declares: “I promise this isn't the fight you want” wow, who is the puffed up one demonstrating, what did you call it, oh yeah, the identity politic loaded term “fragility”. great look.
it seems that Selvatico did not start the fight, he criticized a book, possibly too harshly at times for sure (i have personally advised him about this from time to time), but julius turned it somewhere more conflictual, dishonest, and potentially violent with the (not really between the lines and not really suspending judgement except in double-speak, dogwhistle…well, i didn’t actually say it…) false accusations.
no, areion is not responsible for these types of stupid actions and responses, but they did offer a questionable perspective and book for the dimwitted to bounce off of.
“dangerously dishonest”
anon (not verified) Sat, 08/31/2024 - 12:58
In reply to damn. i’d be pissed too. yes, by owlspeaks (not verified)
“dangerously dishonest”
+black sun
+antifa brutes
+charles manson
+don’t say “whiteness”
Where is the dishonesty?
Hey don't forget repping a
anon (not verified) Sat, 08/31/2024 - 13:58
In reply to “dangerously dishonest” by anon (not verified)
Hey don't forget repping a publisher that's literally distributing "Might is Right" alongside his book!
Stop pointing things out!
anon (not verified) Sat, 08/31/2024 - 14:11
In reply to Hey don't forget repping a by anon (not verified)
Stop pointing things out! That's dangerous.
Agreed. At least Wolfi had
anon (not verified) Sat, 08/31/2024 - 14:40
In reply to Hey don't forget repping a by anon (not verified)
Agreed. At least Wolfi had the sense to pull the Unique from UA when he learned more about them.
NO, Wolfi had the sense to
anon (not verified) Sat, 08/31/2024 - 17:32
In reply to Agreed. At least Wolfi had by anon (not verified)
NO, Wolfi had the sense to pull his book WHEN HIS LIFE WAS THREATENED!!! That’s the kind of antifa-like shit Selvaticco seems to be referring to. Is that part of antiracist holy war? seems like it very well may be, just for starters at least.
Cool story except... wrong.
anon (not verified) Sat, 08/31/2024 - 18:02
In reply to NO, Wolfi had the sense to by anon (not verified)
Cool story except... wrong. But go off.
When Aragorn! had his life threatened he laughed at them and showed up anyway and proceeded to eat cheeseburgers in front of a room of sneering vegans. Wolfi is cut from the same cloth. Don't get it twisted.
(just passing through)
anon (not verified) Mon, 09/02/2024 - 08:52
In reply to Cool story except... wrong. by anon (not verified)
"Cool story except... wrong."
actually not. why don't you actually ask wolfi? i have, instead of putting out some projection that fits your twisted narrative. wolf didn't run from it as much as it wasn't worth it to him, he was not all that invested in any particular publisher so potential bodily harm wasn't worth it. we all make choices like this every day, unless you present as a perpetual warrior (online). props to A! for his ongoing defiance. we all handle thing differently. i doubt Selvatico will pull his book from underworld amusements because some losers try to paint him dishonestly. he has stood up to much more than that over the years. i have also asked him about this as well, and they have no intention to leave ua. he told me that he finds ua "far less troubling than the anarchist space, and far less authoritarian". you see, going to sources for your information gets to the actual truth of things, unless endless lies and propaganda are your goal. speaking of going to the source, before trashing underworld amusements, you might want to go the the website or contact the authors. they have a huge selection of anarchist, egoist, individualist, etc material (as well as some interesting and potentially "banned by leftists" books. they are actually taking up a huge selection (the best of it) from LBC. but i am sure you will have some inaccurate snark about that. probably why wolfi, selvatico, and most anarchists i have affinity with don't spend their lives in cesspools like the internet. (just passing through)
You never spoke to me. Stop
Real Wolfi 69 (not verified) Mon, 09/02/2024 - 11:07
In reply to (just passing through) by anon (not verified)
You never spoke to me. Stop with the lies. I will rip off your head and shit down your neck if you keep trying to use me to justify working with fascists.
That is not the story Wolfi
anon (not verified) Mon, 09/02/2024 - 13:28
In reply to You never spoke to me. Stop by Real Wolfi 69 (not verified)
That is not the story Wolfi told me face-to-face. not sure when that came out or what kind of pressure he was under at the time (like death-threats) but i know he is still in communication with UA and they still distribute a number of things by him. maybe someone should ask him now (2024) what his feelings are. as for UA, they are certainly NOT fascists, and far less authoritarian than so many anarchists i see out there (like the ones who want to tell people what is ok and not to read or distribute, for instance, and that is just on the text side of things)
Sure, pal. "not sure when
anon (not verified) Mon, 09/02/2024 - 14:01
In reply to That is not the story Wolfi by anon (not verified)
Sure, pal. "not sure when that came out or ..." It's dated and he explains it if you read it, smart-guy.
Why are right-leaning (and left-leaning) bros so quick to turn everything in to stupid tribal groupthink and not actually fucking learn from the truth plainly presented before them?
We get it, you like certain things and you think that others should like those things too or at least not make you feel bad for liking those things. Whatever.
We're supposed to be anarchists here. Fucking act like it.
ok boss.
anon (not verified) Mon, 09/02/2024 - 16:45
In reply to Sure, pal. "not sure when by anon (not verified)
ok boss.
not "right-leaning", oh, that's right, anything not clearly in the leftist bookends is right-leaning now, forgot.
not a bro. oh, yeah, anyone who challenges the newest orthodoxy is just a reactionary bro now, forgot again
and as i said, more recent conversations with Wolfi said otherwise, but i guess you can just ignore that,
or the idea that contacting Wolfi might get somewhere you can not use..
sorry i missed the date on the post, that makes everything i say invalid now, great logic.
i don't care what anyone else likes or not. i do care when people misleadingly call things fascist.
but again, write it off, deflect, whatever.
and yes, we are supposed to be anarchists here, so let's see it, for a change.
I just spoke to Wolfi and he
anon (not verified) Mon, 09/02/2024 - 21:34
In reply to ok boss. by anon (not verified)
I just spoke to Wolfi and he said you were lying and really ugly too. Trust me I just said so. It doesn't matter when Real Wolfi 69 provided evidence and you provided hearsay. Nope we should just trust what you said and not what Wolfi wrote that's up on The Anarchist Library and he spoke about on AnarchyBang. OooOooh!
ALso when Real Wolfi 69 said "right-leaning (and left-leaning)" and you come back adamant you're not one of those totally ignoring that both were mentioned it shows your whole ass, bro.
Wolfi just invited me over to watch a porno. Don't be cringe.
not telling you to believe me
anon (not verified) Tue, 09/03/2024 - 08:47
In reply to I just spoke to Wolfi and he by anon (not verified)
not telling you to believe me, i am saying what i personally know from a face-to-face ongoing relationship with him (which i know means nothing to most people these days). oh, and why not try to contact him yourself? dare ya. you might not like what you hear or will try to claim it is AI. i totally understand that the internet is your god, so go worship loser.
as far as your other issue, i was responding to bogus charges of being "right-leaning", "left-leaning" (in parentheses) was added by you to show some flimsy and falsely-constructed objectiveness. your rhetorical games are so obvious, seen them a million times. yawn. yer ass is all i smell from here and i think you need more substance in your diet, bro. i am done responding to your infantile trash (to which i am sure you will have some not-so-witty-but-thinks-you-are-and-your-mommy-finds-so-cute remark).
not telling you to believe me, i am saying what i personally know from a face-to-face. oh, and why not try to contact him yourself? dare ya. tou might not like what you hear, or will try to claim it is AI. i totally understand that the internet is your god, so go worship loser.
"Forget about that open
TranslationWolf (not verified) Tue, 09/03/2024 - 09:15
In reply to not telling you to believe me by anon (not verified)
"Forget about that open letter and podcast Wolfi literally put into the world to address the matter, he told me, rando anon, something *checks notes* different. Trust me, bro."
"not telling you to believe
anon (not verified) Tue, 09/03/2024 - 09:20
In reply to not telling you to believe me by anon (not verified)
"not telling you to believe me, i am saying what i personally know from a face-to-face. oh, and why not try to contact him yourself? dare ya. tou might not like what you hear, or will try to claim it is AI. i totally understand that the internet is your god, so go worship loser."
No, you're telling the entire readership of this article to believe you. I also find if fascinating that you got so stressed over this that you labored over and pasted the above bit twice, not for effect but because "ya" "yer" totally full of shit.
Look, my boyfriend has the biggest muscles and has a mansion in Exarcheia where we are loved by all the anarchists for our dance parties and gift bags. Trust me.
"wElL acTuAllY!" If only
Real Wolfi 69 (not verified) Mon, 09/02/2024 - 11:41
In reply to (just passing through) by anon (not verified)
"wElL acTuAllY!" If only there were an official statement on the matter.
Oh wait! https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/wolfi-landstreicher-an-open-let…
+The dishonesty is how you
anon (not verified) Sat, 08/31/2024 - 17:31
In reply to “dangerously dishonest” by anon (not verified)
+The dishonesty is how you frame it ALL and take it ALL out of context.
by this measure, the initial
anon (not verified) Sat, 08/31/2024 - 17:56
In reply to +The dishonesty is how you by anon (not verified)
by this measure, the initial critique of WHP would be extremely dishonest given all the contextual omissions discussed above
damn you dastardly holy
anon (not verified) Sat, 08/31/2024 - 18:14
In reply to +The dishonesty is how you by anon (not verified)
damn you dastardly holy warriors with your capacity to remember more than just the sentence immediately in front of your face while reading, to be able to grapple with a piece as a whole, and to then be able to arrange an argument around themes spread throughout a text. this must be some sort of cult technique! so much agenda. so much intent.
"questions, concerns or
Julius (not verified) Sat, 08/31/2024 - 13:30
In reply to damn. i’d be pissed too. yes, by owlspeaks (not verified)
"questions, concerns or criticisms" > as far as I can tell, this seems to be what Ze/zir poses as well.
Just so I'm tracking this correctly: hyperbole, projection, and willful mischaracterization is acceptable when Selvatico does it, but fucked up when its done to him in turn?
this all just reads like someone who can dish it out, but can't take it. unfortunately very typical of egoist/nihilist/etcetc men of a certain generation. love spewing vitriol and being provocative, and the turn into total snowflakes when that is reciprocated.
or what's the line about shitty games and shitty prizes?
would the real Julius
julius (not verified) Sat, 08/31/2024 - 13:33
In reply to "questions, concerns or by Julius (not verified)
would the real Julius (unverified) please stand up!?
I said what I said
julius (not verified) Sat, 08/31/2024 - 13:49
In reply to would the real Julius by julius (not verified)
I said what I said
I didn't say what I didn't
Julius (not verified) Sat, 08/31/2024 - 14:11
In reply to I said what I said by julius (not verified)
I didn't say what I didn't say
can someone explain to me how
anon (not verified) Sat, 08/31/2024 - 14:13
In reply to damn. i’d be pissed too. yes, by owlspeaks (not verified)
can someone explain to me how rimming all of a sudden became a perjorative metaphor? Y'all are not beating the "can't cum" accusations
"Eat shit"
anon (not verified) Sat, 08/31/2024 - 14:15
In reply to can someone explain to me how by anon (not verified)
"Eat shit"
"i’m pretty certain it was
anon (not verified) Sat, 08/31/2024 - 18:02
In reply to damn. i’d be pissed too. yes, by owlspeaks (not verified)
"i’m pretty certain it was not original"
Proof?
I.S. Jumps so fast from
anon (not verified) Sat, 08/31/2024 - 12:05
In reply to THE DARKNESS RESPONDS TO THE POODLE FOR RIMMING THE MOON PART 3 by Invecchiare Se… (not verified)
I.S. Jumps so fast from
“ I am not at all concerned that I may be deemed an oppressor”
to
“How dare you suggest my weird racial shit is racist. This is a declaration of war. Watch your back”
That it could make your head spin. Or, completely prove J.Z.’s point
out of context and
anon (not verified) Sat, 08/31/2024 - 17:35
In reply to I.S. Jumps so fast from by anon (not verified)
out of context and misrepresentation. but i guess that’s how ya’ll roll in your antiracist holy war. or maybe ya’ll can’t actually read and have your ai pet do it for you.
and what exactly is J.Z.’s point?
the point seems to be that IS
anon (not verified) Sat, 08/31/2024 - 17:55
In reply to out of context and by anon (not verified)
the point seems to be that IS has naughty interests and so is concerned about being the target of anti-racists, and thus the misrepresentations and decontextualizing of A's book. one can obviously have naughty interests without being a fascist, but the tantrum over a little bit of rough but playful discourse definitely indicates it struck a nerve. some kinda persecution complex or trauma response maybe? IDK
@ Selvatico
K (not verified) Mon, 09/02/2024 - 21:39
In reply to THE DARKNESS RESPONDS TO THE POODLE FOR RIMMING THE MOON PART 3 by Invecchiare Se… (not verified)
Dude Selvatico you are in way over your head here. You wrote an insulting, dishonest, intentionally bad-faith “review” of Areion’s book on a type of anarchy clearly unrelated to yours (but which is nonetheless also vital and valid) and then Julius Ze/zir (JZ) wrote an actually thoughtful but definitely cutting response, and instead of responding to 90% of their points in it you just insult them, call it trash and throw a temper tantrum. I mean come on now - you are literally complaining that this book was written with a specific agenda - to spread the Black Flame of Anarchy as the authors see and live it - as if this is somehow threatening to you. I could hand some eco-boomer at my local health food store a copy of Tinderbox (the offline journal of combative anarchy you find so reprehensible) and hear the same response - that our ideas are dangerous and threatening to their comfortable and sedentary way of life. Threatening to their civilization. To go from publishing an excellent green anarchist journal (which called for attack!) to getting freaked out that people might be taking secret oaths to attack systems of power (including but not limited to the racial regime propping up American society) is a long road to irrelevance and obscurity. This is genuinely embarrassing my man.
Areions text and the work of the initiates of the Black Flame is not a threat to your anarcho-hippie land project, although reading your vitriolic responses it seems like you’re playing the old “anyone disagreeing with me is threatening me” card a little early in the game. In fact quite the opposite - that basically no one cares what you think and didn’t ask your puerile, mean and shamefully reactionary opinion - is probably closer to the truth.
We get that you think anyone who isn’t gardening or complaining about other anarchists isn’t a “real anarchist”. The rest of us living anarchic lives and fighting for them aren’t coming at you for believing that, but if you think - like other Facebook-posting reactionary boomers who you claim to hate but increasingly model your actions after - you can write a “review” in such bad faith and call this small but apparently powerful spiritual anarchist current every insult under the Sun and not get it cast back at you then you have been living in an isolated fantasy world where you are God and everyone else is your subject, to raise up or cut down without consequence. Maybe finally just identifying as a socially-conservative libertarian and leaving the anarchist movement alone would be better for everyone’s blood pressure and mental health.
"the initiates of the Black
anon (not verified) Mon, 09/02/2024 - 22:22
In reply to @ Selvatico by K (not verified)
"the initiates of the Black Flame"
I implore you to please reconsider this culty thing you're LARPing at. It cheapens whatever it is you intend to do or say. You do shit you don't need to have kewl secret handshakes and ritual spankings and matched wardrobes. Don't be cringe. Go watch a porno.
21.39
anon (not verified) Tue, 09/03/2024 - 09:09
In reply to @ Selvatico by K (not verified)
i'd say that julius' and IS's tone/content ratios were pretty close, actually. both have decent points, and both had pot-stirrer polemical writing styles.
so your finger pointing at one and lauding the other is bullshit.
signed, another anon
totally agree.
anon (not verified) Tue, 09/03/2024 - 10:28
In reply to 21.39 by anon (not verified)
totally agree.
its insane what passion (understandable) and ideology (problematic) does to people's perception.
also, these very questionable personal attacks in this comment are very different than the critiques originally posted, however harsh they were.
On warfare
Butterfly (not verified) Sun, 12/22/2024 - 16:40
In reply to THE DARKNESS RESPONDS TO THE POODLE FOR RIMMING THE MOON PART 3 by Invecchiare Se… (not verified)
Are the great spiritual teachings really advocating that we fight evil because we are on the side of light, the side of peace? Are they telling us to fight against that other 'undesirable' side, the bad and the black. That is a big question. If there is wisdom in the sacred teachings, there should not be any war. As long as a person is involved with warfare, trying to defend or attack, then his action is not sacred; it is mundane, dualistic, a battlefield situation.
Chögyam Trungpa
There's about to be a whole
anon (not verified) Sun, 12/22/2024 - 17:29
In reply to On warfare by Butterfly (not verified)
There's about to be a whole lot of battlefield situations that will also include privileged white westerners. I'm sure everyone will be moved to tears by your epic buddhism just at the last second.
Someone in Sudan is mundane, I guess, for trying to live?
It's funny how for a full day
anon (not verified) Sat, 08/31/2024 - 18:00
It's funny how for a full day the comment section of Millenarian Hail-marianism was a chorus of "aCtuAlLy ReSpOnD pLeAsE", and then an actual response is written and everyone is butt hurt.
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