by thecollective
Jun 18, 2024
Via It's Going Down
Video mini-documentary from subMedia.Tv on the anarchist concept of dual power.
Dual Power, sometimes referred to as counter-power, is a stage in a revolutionary movement where two competing political frameworks occupy the same space. For anti-state revolutionaries this implies a significant mobilization of people organizing autonomously and outside of and against existing power structures and institutions.
In this episode of A is for Anarchy, we examine the historical origins of dual power and analyze current examples and those throughout history.
Comments
around 2:30 timestamp, 3rd
anon (not verified) Tue, 06/18/2024 - 19:56
around 2:30 timestamp, 3rd segment, this has screenshot and highlight of a post on anarchistnews.org
I looked up the post https://anarchistnews.org/content/shut-about-dual-power-tool, and it's actually a repost from raddle, written by ziq https://raddle.me/wiki/dualpower
"Enable JavaScript and
anon (not verified) Tue, 06/18/2024 - 20:05
In reply to around 2:30 timestamp, 3rd by anon (not verified)
"Enable JavaScript and cookies to continue"
Nice website you got there!
ziq's analysis is trash but
lumpy (not verified) Tue, 06/18/2024 - 20:18
In reply to around 2:30 timestamp, 3rd by anon (not verified)
ziq's analysis is trash but luckily, some brave anons solved it in the comments
Ziq: "Follow me, not the
anon (not verified) Wed, 06/19/2024 - 10:06
In reply to ziq's analysis is trash but by lumpy (not verified)
Ziq: "Follow me, not the other guy", indeed.
That's not what i read
anon (not verified) Wed, 06/19/2024 - 12:31
In reply to Ziq: "Follow me, not the by anon (not verified)
The essay has a lot of disdain and insults tossed towards reformists and dual power supporters, but i don't see any insistance on following ziq - just not working with the state or building counter institutions
i think you can critique that but it doesnt say much like "follow me"
*Leninist concept
anon (not verified) Wed, 06/19/2024 - 08:35
*Leninist concept
Yep. Can't believe this is
anon (not verified) Wed, 06/19/2024 - 10:23
In reply to *Leninist concept by anon (not verified)
Yep. Can't believe this is still a thing being discussed in anarchist circles.
if you bother reading beyond
lumpy (not verified) Wed, 06/19/2024 - 13:54
In reply to Yep. Can't believe this is by anon (not verified)
if you bother reading beyond ziq's shrill, reactive crap, the interesting part is that Lenin didn't come up with any of this shit
"Dual power" is better understood as, every political power struggle ever, when it gets to a certain point.
Ever since the first king or priest and a group of people formed, who were sick of his shit
As usual, shithead cult leaders are just stealing ideas from their betters, lenin included.
I didn't read the article and
anon (not verified) Wed, 06/19/2024 - 17:39
In reply to if you bother reading beyond by lumpy (not verified)
I didn't read the article and have no idea what Ziq said about anything. I do, however, know that dual power is a beloved Leninist position that provably belongs nowhere near anyone interested in anarchy. You can call the concept by another name and rewrite your post and.. fine, but when talking about, explicitly, "dual power" in 2024, in radical circles, you are invoking Leninist failures. Use less loaded words or deal with the ire of anti-Communists.
if you'd bothered to review
lumpy (not verified) Wed, 06/19/2024 - 18:39
In reply to I didn't read the article and by anon (not verified)
if you'd bothered to review the material, the video, the critiques of ziq's writing, the comments that link to other, better analysis, ANY of it. the point being made is that the only one getting punked by lenin at this point is anyone who believes he invented any of these things.
typical problem of continental philosophy in general, give credit to the random white guy who showed up late, did a few casual genocides and took credit for ideas that have always existed in various forms
I am sure that you are very
anon (not verified) Thu, 06/20/2024 - 14:26
In reply to I didn't read the article and by anon (not verified)
I am sure that you are very familiar with the Russian revolution, but let me just remind you that actually Lenin was adamantly opposed to dual power and instead proposed the slogan all power to the Soviets. The anarchist movement was not actually a real historical Force at the time but the socialist revolutionaries were relatively anarchistic and along with the mensheviks and the other sections of the non-insurrectional socialist movement, they all believed in dual power.
"but let me just remind you
anon (not verified) Fri, 06/21/2024 - 10:27
In reply to I am sure that you are very by anon (not verified)
"but let me just remind you that actually ... the socialist revolutionaries were relatively anarchistic and along with the mensheviks and the other sections of the non-insurrectional socialist movement, they all believed in dual power."
Oh well then it MUST be good! We anarchists of today should TOTALLY try it again then! What could go wrong??
current practices
rizzler (not verified) Wed, 06/19/2024 - 09:50
happening this july in Oregon
dual power gathering
https://www.dualpowergathering.org/
POWER TO THE SOVIETS, COMRAD!
MaoSexBomb (not verified) Thu, 06/20/2024 - 17:08
In reply to current practices by rizzler (not verified)
POWER TO THE SOVIETS, COMRAD! TOGETHER WE'LL CRUSH THOSE ANARCHO INDIVIDUALISTS SO THAT THE DOCTRINE OF POWER REMAINS INTACT FOR A FEW MORE CENTURIES TO CUUUUM!
They have an expanded
GO3 Wed, 06/19/2024 - 11:51
They have an expanded definition of dual power that encompasses anarchist and other collective infrastructure that isn't a form of governance or a system of social control. Under this definition anything anarchists and friends have or do together would qualify as dual power, like this website for instance.
useless
Moe Fridim (not verified) Wed, 06/19/2024 - 14:02
In reply to They have an expanded by GO3
In other words, a definition that serves no purpose other than to make those who use it feel more important and involved than they really are.
Maybe a good natured attempt
GO3 Wed, 06/19/2024 - 14:12
In reply to useless by Moe Fridim (not verified)
Maybe a good natured attempt at a big tent revival. I don't think all the people in the riot porn are anarchists, there's some Marxists and some radlibs in there too. The people's assembly is a synthesis of different tendencies. Just don't let papa Stalin rear his ugly head.
good natured
Moe Fridim (not verified) Wed, 06/19/2024 - 15:30
In reply to Maybe a good natured attempt by GO3
Submedia's idea of "good natured" is doing free propaganda for the Ukrainian/Canadian war effort. I can see why they'd be into dual power rather than just anti-state power, since they support subservience to the state institution of the army and to NATO interests.
i would push what you're
lumpy (not verified) Wed, 06/19/2024 - 15:42
In reply to Maybe a good natured attempt by GO3
i would push what you're saying further, since the post-left critique is very boring when people use it to strawman everyone who does anything, ever.
in this video, as well as many other well-argued sources, the point is made that "dual power" is pretty much anything that people do collectively, outside of an authoritarian framework, or it becomes dual power once it's organized to a big enough scale.
so that would be pretty much all non-hierarchical human social dynamics throughout history that can defend themselves and/or meaningfully impact the world. anything that isn't isolated, alienated individuals with no political consciousness but also isn't an authoritarian cult
it's pretty embarrassing to accidentally find yourself saying, as an anarchist, that the only human group experiences that aren't a nightmare, are to be dismissed as "just leninism"
what's dual?
Moe Fridim (not verified) Wed, 06/19/2024 - 17:02
In reply to i would push what you're by lumpy (not verified)
There's nothing inherently "dual" about doing things outside of (or against) an authoritarian framework. What's even more boring than post-left critique is adopting Leninist slogans for no reason other than to delude oneself and others. There are plenty of terms to use. People can organize against the State or whatever thing without using Leninist slogans and means. People can sign up to be a killer for the State and be buddies with fascists and still call themselves an "anarchist". It's not the terms that matter so much as what people actually think and do.
A recent example of dual
GO3 Wed, 06/19/2024 - 17:34
In reply to what's dual? by Moe Fridim (not verified)
A recent example of dual power that I can think of is Occupy Sandy. They started providing services to their neighbors almost immediately after the hurricane. Bloomberg had a fit and tried to shut them down and it took him a week to get the Red Cross mobilized. Dual power doesn't have to rival the state but ultimately that's the goal is to replace the existing institutions with AIs alternative institutions and XIs counter institutions.
support
Moe Fridim (not verified) Wed, 06/19/2024 - 17:52
In reply to A recent example of dual by GO3
I'm not against doing disaster support or whatever other project, on principle. I'm against calling everything we think is good "dual power", especially when there's nothing "dual" about what we're doing.
... your point is addressed
lumpy (not verified) Wed, 06/19/2024 - 18:34
In reply to support by Moe Fridim (not verified)
... your point is addressed in the video
also, semantics are rarely interesting except to people who just arrived at a discussion and are so far behind, they think they're first
'member when anarchists used
anon (not verified) Wed, 06/19/2024 - 18:13
In reply to A recent example of dual by GO3
'member when anarchists used to call anarchists doing stuff like this.. anarchy?
anarchism
Moe Fridim (not verified) Wed, 06/19/2024 - 18:36
In reply to 'member when anarchists used by anon (not verified)
Remember how Bonanno and comrades had/have a magazine and publishing project called "Anarchism (Editions)", not "Anarchy"? That was cool. I bet "anarchy" makes people feel edgier tho, even when they're not doing anything very spicy. Kind of like "dual power".
Have you actually read
anon joy (not verified) Wed, 06/19/2024 - 20:31
In reply to anarchism by Moe Fridim (not verified)
Have you actually read Edizioni Anarchismo?
Here's a quote:
"L’anarchia è il massimo livello della libertà, riconoscere questo itinerario, scoprirlo, seguirlo, sono esercizi massacranti e richiedono una certa tendenza omicida. L’anarchico non sogna distruzioni, distrugge."
Which says:
"Anarchy is the highest level of freedom, recognizing this itinerary, discovering it, following it, are grueling exercises and require a certain homicidal tendency. The anarchist does not dream of destruction, he destroys."
So, kindly, vaffanculo.
have you actually read my comment?
Moe Fridim (not verified) Wed, 06/19/2024 - 20:42
In reply to Have you actually read by anon joy (not verified)
Have you actually read my comment? Because I never said that they never used the word "anarchy". That would be like a totally different train of thought or something. Some people in America can be a little one-track-minded at times.
What did your comment have to
anon (not verified) Wed, 06/19/2024 - 20:47
In reply to have you actually read my comment? by Moe Fridim (not verified)
What did your comment have to do with the one you were replying to? What did Bonanno's journal title have to do with the content of the comment you were replying to? Oh that's right, nothing. Pathetic.
something
Moe Fridim (not verified) Wed, 06/19/2024 - 20:57
In reply to What did your comment have to by anon (not verified)
Well, it had the word "anarchy" to do with it at least, so that's something. I added the "anarchism" to the mix. People were already discussing the use of the term "dual power" (in a mostly American context or so I assumed). Sorry if you can't put two and two together. Seems like your problem more than anyone else's.
Bruh, sorry about your mom
anon (not verified) Wed, 06/19/2024 - 21:31
In reply to something by Moe Fridim (not verified)
Bruh, sorry about your mom
no need to apologize
Moe Fridim (not verified) Wed, 06/19/2024 - 21:44
In reply to Bruh, sorry about your mom by anon (not verified)
No need to apologize. My mom is not Mother Earth but Anarchy Planet Dot Org, and she is more supportive than a mere rock could ever be.
Dual power has nothing to do
anon (not verified) Thu, 06/20/2024 - 14:29
In reply to what's dual? by Moe Fridim (not verified)
Dual power has nothing to do with leninism. The Bolsheviks actively opposed dual power after the February revolution and actively sought to dissolve the kerensky government... Leading directly to the October revolution
That's false, as they set up
anon (not verified) Thu, 06/20/2024 - 17:13
In reply to Dual power has nothing to do by anon (not verified)
That's false, as they set up a literal dual power by reusing hordes of bureaucrats of the old regime then formed the Checka to keep them in check...tho that didn't work too well, and it made the government twice as big as before.
Also always funny that our old frienemies are hanging out on anarchist sites. Good state soldiers...
meant to say:
anon (not verified) Thu, 06/20/2024 - 17:15
In reply to That's false, as they set up by anon (not verified)
"are *still* hanging out"
....that's true but that's
anon (not verified) Sat, 06/22/2024 - 05:25
In reply to That's false, as they set up by anon (not verified)
....that's true but that's just not what dual power means. dual power means that the government and the soviets manage society together. in this way, it represents a kind of temporary peace accord between revolutionaries and the state. the bolsheviks opposed dual power, they wanted the soviets to dominate and topple the bourgeois state completely. obviously there are many serious problems with the ussr and i am no special fan of any of that stuff just trying to say that it is not a leninist idea really at all, it is more like something that came from the workers movement if anything.
nice double think, brow.
anon (not verified) Sat, 06/22/2024 - 09:14
In reply to ....that's true but that's by anon (not verified)
So basically you just said "Yes,... no, but you're right. But no." The bolcheviks totally ended up in a dual power situation where their regime consolidated power by collaborating with the bourgeois governnent.
Or in Lenin's own words, that invalidates your claim that dual power has nothing to do with Lenin... https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/apr/09.htm
The Bolcheviks were a reactionary organization, and so are their contemporary equivalents like the Maoists and Tiqqunians.
Oh and have you forgot Mao!?
anon (not verified) Sat, 06/22/2024 - 08:57
In reply to Maybe a good natured attempt by GO3
Oh and have you forgot Mao!? But we are at a time the big tent needs to be completely dismantled and burnt to the ground, before we can talk about a "revival".
In such, you are making good lip service to idellogical enenies that watch riot porn from their police station with their comrades in uniform while eating donuts. Because dual power.
Can you clarify what you
anon (not verified) Thu, 06/20/2024 - 14:14
Can you clarify what you think is going on here?
"Under this definition
anon (not verified) Thu, 06/20/2024 - 14:29
"Under this definition anything anarchists and friends have or do together would qualify as dual power, like this website for instance."
Like almost everything I've ever encountered up close and personal that gets called anarchism in the United States since the late 1970s, this is comically self-indulgent hippie ideology.
I hate to interrupt the God-given red white and blue All-American right to have expert opinions about stuff that the opinion holders can't bother to find out anything about, but if any of you ever cracked open a - gasp! - history book, or two, or ten or twenty, you would slowly understand that dual power is an objective development in the most significant mass revolutionary upheavals of the past 150 years: Russia in 1917, Spain from July to Sept. 1936 and again, briefly, in May 1937, France in May '68: it means what someone else on this thread referred to, where a rising mass popular revolutionary movement is challenging the previously existing social order and its state and its armed goons.
This obviously is a concern for people who want to help make a social revolution.
Rollover pic makes it obvious they're really just..
anon (not verified) Thu, 06/20/2024 - 17:01
Bootlickers.
There is no rollover, you
anon (not verified) Sat, 06/22/2024 - 11:37
In reply to Rollover pic makes it obvious they're really just.. by anon (not verified)
There is no rollover, you dork.
Towards Autonomous, Intergenerational Communities
anon (not verified) Fri, 06/21/2024 - 23:03
Towards Autonomous, Intergenerational Communities on U.S.-Occupied Territory
by Bay Area Intifada
https://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2024/06/17/18867459.php
"Towards Autonomous,
anon (not verified) Sat, 06/22/2024 - 05:46
In reply to Towards Autonomous, Intergenerational Communities by anon (not verified)
"Towards Autonomous, Intergenerational Communities on U.S.-Occupied Territory" by Bay Area Intifada is a reactionary utopia for SF Bay Area racial nationalist Stalinoids. The creepy-crawlie counter-subversive New Left of fifty years ago needs to have a stake driven through its heart.
The basic question of every
anon (not verified) Sat, 06/22/2024 - 09:21
The basic question of every revolution is that of state power. Unless this question is understood, there can be no intelligent participation in the revolution, not to speak of guidance of the revolution.
The highly remarkable feature of our revolution is that it has brought about a dual power. This fact must be grasped first and foremost: unless it is understood, we cannot advance. We must know how to supplement and amend old “formulas”, for example, those of Bolshevism, for while they have been found to be correct on the whole, their concrete realisation has turned out to bedifferent. Nobody previously thought, or could have thought, of a dual power.
What is this dual power? Alongside the Provisional Government, the government of bourgeoisie, another governmenthas arisen, so far weak and incipient, but undoubtedly a government that actually exists and is growing—the Soviets of Workers’ and Soldiers’ Deputies.
What is the class composition of this other government? It consists of the proletariat and the peasants (in soldiers’ uniforms). What is the political nature of this government? It is a revolutionary dictatorship, i.e., a power directly based on revolutionary seizure, on the direct initiative of the people from below, and not on a law enacted by a centralised state power. It is an entirely different kind of power from the one that generally exists in the parliamentary bourgeois-democratic republics of the usual type still prevailing in the advanced countries of Europe and America. This circumstance often over looked, often not given enough thought, yet it is the crux of the matter. This power is of the same type as the Paris Commune of 1871. The fundamental characteristics of this type are: (1) the source of power is not a law previously discussed and enacted by parliament, but the direct initiative of the people from below, in their local areas—direct “seizure”, to use a current expression; (2) the replacement of the police and the army, which are institutions divorced from the people and set against the people, by the direct arming of the whole people; order in the state under such a power is maintained by the armed workers and peasants themselves, by the armed people themselves; (3) officialdom, the bureaucracy, are either similarly replaced by the direct rule of the people themselves or at least placed under special control; they not only become elected officials, but are also subject to recall at the people’s first demand; they are reduced to the position of simple agents; from a privileged group holding “jobs” remunerated on a high, bourgeois scale, they become workers of a special “arm of the service”, whose remuneration does not exceed the ordinary pay of a competent worker.
- Lenin, "The Dual Power", April 1917
...so yea, Leninists FECK OFF forever.
Actually there is much that
anon (not verified) Sat, 06/22/2024 - 10:35
In reply to The basic question of every by anon (not verified)
Actually there is much that is of use in this for actual revolutionaries, antagonistic to Leninists. You would have to be capable of reading it with a critical eye and taking from this what is useful.
yeah, it's the composition of
lumpy (not verified) Sat, 06/22/2024 - 14:34
In reply to Actually there is much that by anon (not verified)
yeah, it's the composition of the "power", separate and distinct from the established power, lenin is partially correct, while being a mass murdering psycho and aspiring tyrant himself
the fukin magna carta? same shit but it was the wealthy merchants, challenging their automatically lower status under feudalism
in the case of the french rev, different powers, same chess board. haitian revolution? same game, giving their colonial overlords the punt, then new internal power struggles immediately begin. ancient greece? same shit. ancient sumeria? probably the same shit!
saying the generalized tendency of "dual power" is lenism, is a bit like saying marxism is all of economics, before karl was born. the mistake is confusing an astute observation about something very old, for "inventing" an idea.
None of these more distant
anon (not verified) Sat, 06/22/2024 - 16:25
In reply to yeah, it's the composition of by lumpy (not verified)
None of these more distant historical examples gotta do with the concept of dual power, I think. Just because you got a power struggle between interests (and yes, they date back to the ancient world at least), doesn't make them "dual power". Dual power has to do with using the dominant institutions and power structures to push a revolution from within, in order to change this power and eventually flush it. That's what the Bolcheviks did, and achieved probably with Stalin's purges.
But the current trend about dual power within commies and/or ancom milieus is pretty sus. This reads like a kind of legitimation of collaborating with the state toward building of a counter-power. So that you can have comrades in the police, in managerial castes... What could go wrong?
yes, i've seen lefty
anon (not verified) Sat, 06/22/2024 - 18:51
In reply to None of these more distant by anon (not verified)
yes, i've seen lefty academics use this logic to justify and celebrate policies under Chavez and Maduro that support "popular power", and criticize those who refuse to support the policies of these rulers as "anti-todos" or "against-everythingists"
I don't know about you but as
Nihilist Donkey (not verified) Sat, 06/22/2024 - 19:21
I don't know about you but as an anarchist against this dystopian techno-industrial civilization I'd MUCH prefer Mule Power or even Duel Power.
HEE-HAW! HEE-HAW!
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